Owning vs. Renting Your Career | JobSearchTV.com
FROM THE ARCHIVES (2015)
Once upon a time boys and girls, a person went to work right out of high school confident that they would be able to work for an employer until retirement, Fat chance of that happening now!
On this show, I speak with Kevin Kermes of All Things Career about constructive ways to look at your career. Rather than allowing yourself to get “stuck” doing work you don’t enjoy, Kevin offers a formula to help you think holistically about your career and come up with an answer for yourself. NOTE: The transcript is unedited.
so my guest on job search radio this
week is Kevin Kermes who heads up all
famous career a digital publishing
company focused on the career space
kevin welcome to job search radio great
ahead thanks for having me you’re
welcome hope we have some fun today yeah
I’m sure we will I’m sure with a topic
like this I’m sure we will so let me
just put it out there owning versus
renting your career absolutely what do
you mean by that yeah well I’ll tell you
first of all I’ve got to give credit to
a friend of mine who who brought this up
and I told her that I would be be
stealing it and sharing it for a few you
silly but I really when it comes down to
is the difference between controlling
and you know controlling your outcomes
from a career standpoint taking a more
active role in it versus kind of
relinquishing and giving up that control
and being dictated by conditions around
you in the workplace so as an employee
of a firm you’d put yourself in the busy
that’s a participant in a career
abdicating little decision making the
big mommy and Big Daddy employer right i
think me and i think it’s it’s a mindset
i always think back to something that we
said in the in the infantry when i was
in the military and that is as a leader
you’re responsible for everything that
happens or fails to happen and that is a
fundamental mistake that i think a lot
of us can make regardless of who we are
employed by whether you are
self-employed like i am and i’m
responsible with those individuals who
make an investment in themselves to work
with me or going back several years when
when I had an employer who is signing my
checks I was responsible for specific
outcomes for them and making sure that
regardless of where your career is going
to take you because as we see the
landscape change out there we can
rapidly move from self-employment to
being employed by someone else to making
massive changes in terms of our our
workplace in either the verticals in
which we work you’ve got to take an
active role in
trolling and dictating those outcomes
for yourself how do you see the
landscape changing you know you annoy
your veteran people you know I know I’ve
seen a lot of changes how do you see
well I you know I think that it can it
can present itself a few different ways
I mean certainly there is the the
relevance of whatever technology or
industry you’re in and that where you
are creating value inside that industry
may shift you may become more important
and and may work your way up to where
you’re you’re generating more revenue
for yourself it may become redundant it
may become as we look at more and more
outsourcing offshoring automation of
roles it could be that that your role is
simply no longer required the the thing
the thing that I focus more on is that
when you look at I think it’s upwards
why not I think I know last year Gallup
did a survey and upwards of eighty
percent of employees are actively
disengaged there are a lot of us out
there that just don’t like what we do
and you complete this engaged what do
you mean by that term though actively
disengaged is you’re at work but you are
not interested in what you’re doing it’s
not where your main focus is it is not
intrinsically fulfilling you you’re
simply put not happy so if that’s the
case if you’re running into that why
succumb to kind of the fallacy of sunk
cost meaning I’ve done this for five
years 10 years 15 years 20 years I can’t
do anything else where am I going to go
my education only supports this instead
navigate a change start to look at
taking responsibility owning your career
and saying you know i’m not i’m not
happy doing this it’s time to do
something different time to take those
steps to control that I agree with you
and I want to go an extra layer on it
you know I’ve been in search for more
than 40 years now so I remember back in
the stone Age’s when I started out that
you know you can still talk in terms of
the person who went to work in one
organization and spent a long time there
and wound up with the other classic gold
watch and does any anyway the wildest
imagination can see if they could ever
have
anymore right no it doesn’t exist so
with that being the case you have to put
yourself in the position of being
responsible for yourself or as a an
early dinner guest the mining rod
cologne says show that we did become the
CEO of me yeah now that’s a good point
that rod makes and I know him and I you
know I would take it a step further is
that I think that there is a general
misunderstanding and or kind of laziness
when it comes to believing if we have X
number of years in an industry that
somehow or another makes us more
relevant more valuable and the reality
is we’ve got to focus on those outcomes
that we are producing I mean you’ve got
to remain a student to the game in terms
of whatever you do so focus on those
outcomes what is it that you’re
achieving for the people or the
organization that you serve and and this
goes hand in hand with when you’re
looking at shifting careers because
that’s what’s really important is the
outcome can you help someone forget
about how many years experience you have
cuz you you and I both know this having
been headhunters you currently still as
a headhunter you got a lot of people out
there that may have done something for
10 20 30 40 years but they make champion
mediocrity at it at a daily basis if
that’s the case no one wants that we
want subject matter expertise we want
people who are basically precision
instruments and serves in terms of
solving specific problems and that’s
where you focus on that that too is
we’re pivoting from one industry to
another or pivoting from one interest to
another if you decide it’s time for a
change in terms of owning your career
becomes a little bit easier and I think
about that pivot by the way folks in
case you’re just listening to this is
the podcast I gave Kevin a huge thumbs
up at one point because I agreed
wholeheartedly with what do you say you
know to begin the pin it you know for
most people who are kind of it may
become mechanical in what they do you
know they do the job they do it well
they’ve stopped really thinking about
change and as a result it’s hard for
them to think about doing something
different except the grumble about the
this isn’t good that’s what where do you
think people can begin that self
evaluation for change well I mean gosh
you can start in a few places and I’m an
enormous advocate of do what you love
and I and I’m not going to give anybody
the trite pablum of you know follow your
passion because I think that that is
that’s terrible advice you can be happy
in terms of doing what you love if your
work is supporting something outside of
work you know there are those of us who
live to work and then work to live and
there can be a balance somewhere in
between where I tell most people to
start and and there aren’t a lot of
folks assets start in this place is what
is your life look like when you’ve got
the ideal job and I’m not talking about
what is that employer look like I mean
holistically what does the entire
package look like because the job has to
support everything else this is this is
where you run into so many people who
have endlessly entire lessly worked
their way up the ladder and they get to
whether they think is going to be the
pinnacle in terms of compensation and
role and responsibility and they’re
freaking miserable there must be the
jack nicholson one from the movie they
with Helen Hunt is this all there is
right this is it and and I’m sure you
run into a lot of people who are saying
that I’ve got countless friends who are
in the top 1% of what they do and
they’re miserable they’re miserable
because they’re sitting there saying is
this it and they’ve sacrificed a lot of
things along the way in order to achieve
that so that’s where you’ve got to put
yourself first and I think that that too
is the owning the career it’s it’s
beyond just taking charge and and making
sure that other people are not always
kind of dictating and taking control of
where you’re headed and what you’re
doing but really looking at does this
serve you know if am I going to look
back I look at this two ways personally
am I gonna look back on my deathbed and
be happy with what I’ve done and more
importantly than that from a legacy
standpoint are my kids who are modeling
some of their behavior after me going to
do the same thing because that’s what
we’re leaving for them and I under this
bill
much further than just kind of
tactically looking at the job searching
career management but that’s the really
important stuff because I mean let’s
face it your kids they don’t care
whether you’re good at what you do or
not what what they are going to see is
how you’ve led your life how you’ve
managed it and how you’ve been able to
take care of all those other
responsibilities you have amen brother
I’m going to pause here and say we’re
going to be back with more from Kevin in
just a moment prefers my job search
insider tip for this show and this
involves the unintentional expression of
bias and interviews and it’s become so
obvious now that we have same-sex
marriage in the United States now I
don’t know how it is for you but I know
a lot of people start to look to see
whether or not there’s a ring on
someone’s finger when they go in for an
interview and if it’s a male they make
the assumption that the person is
married to a woman it’s a female a man
but with same-sex marriage the language
has to change and there are points where
you may unintentionally refer to a wife
or a husband that you’re dealing with
someone who doesn’t have a wife or a
husband a woman who has a wife and a man
named as a husband so I just want to
encourage you not to make the assumption
about the orientation and the spouse of
the other individual I want to remind
you that instead of doing that refer to
wife husband partner in all instances
you will be safe do nothing to offend
anyone and i gotta tell you if you do
offend them a lot of of gay individuals
pause for a second go okay they don’t
get it yet that’s fine and they put a
distance up between you a little bit so
just be conscious of your language and
what its impact and wind up being so
let’s come back Kevin pick up where we
left off and you reminded me of a dear
friend of mine whose father and uncle i
believe were popular composers in the
1920s there were music very successful
when his uncle died this quantitative
analyst anointed met and he spoke about
not wanting to die with the music inside
of him you never know where that poetry
resonates and what the impact is upon
family upon your kids by doing the
drudgery and right presenting it as
you’re doing it that’s really the big
thing they see that you’re not happy and
they see that you’ll resign to accepting
your misery you know it it reminds me
there’s a there’s a great interview with
Steve Martin that Charlie Rose did and
he asked him about his success and Steve
Martin says you know everybody always
wants to hear me say things like here’s
how you get an agent here’s how you star
in a movie here’s how you he said the
reality is this be so good that they
can’t ignore you and the reason I share
that is this stuff is hard work
regardless I I tell my audience and I
particularly tell folks when it when I
coach them look this is going to be hard
work to get where you’re going the good
news about hard work is twofold number
one lazy people and they’re a lot of
them are now going to do it so that
thins the herd right there second of all
if you don’t have anything to truly
contribute if you don’t have that music
inside you then then you’ve got nothing
so you are you are narrowing the
competition but to come full circle back
to what you said if you are going to
have to get in there and get in the muck
and mire every day to produce these
outcomes shouldn’t it be something that
makes you feel good I mean it just to me
doesn’t make any sense it’s
counterintuitive to do something that
makes you absolutely miserable and it
doesn’t matter about a drug list because
no not not one of the criticisms of the
older workers when they interview with
younger workers is that they’re jaded
and I think that comes across as being
been there and done that and you know it
kind of seems past say to them and I
think it’s just the expression of that
drudgery that shows up that oh yeah
another job saying play
through the same thing yadda yadda yadda
like it you know one of the one of the
missed opportunities I think for a lot
of individuals who let’s just say let’s
put a number on it say 25 30 years
experience and and where this comes from
what i’m about to share is from the last
search firm that i owned and i sold out
of it in 2008 we play software sales
executives with small software companies
so between 5 and 20 million dollars and
what we found that those companies
needed is that they needed someone they
typically recovery so it experienced
some growth they were now on a good
trajectory and the people that got them
here we’re not the ones who are going to
get them there and what they need it is
they needed somebody that could plug and
play needed minimal guidance understood
enough about the landscape to drive
things up didn’t need a lot of large
infrastructure and could get deals done
what they needed was they needed people
who had 30 plus years experience the
same group of people who were being
passed over by some of the larger
software companies that are looking for
folks who let’s face it are younger and
so when I run up against the resistance
that people will say well it’s age
discrimination I say you know look a
discrimination on all different levels
exist you just brought that up in your
in your tip the reality is this is that
when you have because boomers and
Millennials inverse the same problem
it’s either more experienced or no
experience when you have more experience
you’ve got to fine tune your message
you’ve got to decide out of a body of
work of 30 years where am I going to put
my weight to bear for one to make no
more than three significant problems and
that’s what my message is centered
around you’ll suss out opportunities
better they may not be full time
consulting may be something that you
need to seriously consider you can
certainly command more compensation and
put all that aside you can be doing this
as a dual track in terms of helping a
larger community through writing books
self-publishing you know taking this
knowledge out and creating online
courses either create them yourself or
you know use something like you to me
there’s an enormous opportunity out
there and and not only an enormous
opportunity to help
people in a way and cut down those
barriers and there’s ever been before
but it allows you to diversify where
your revenue is coming in from which i
think is exceptionally important for
everyone to do again amen brother you
know things have changed a lot and if we
rely upon one revenue source whether
it’s a job or one track of a business
we’re risk well and I’m sure you hear
this all the time when you hear people’s
motivation to move from one company to
another I certainly heard this as a
headhunter it was how people define
security and they would say well I want
to move from a small company which is
doesn’t have the security at a large
company has so I want to go to a
publicly traded company people in
publicly traded company would say you
know I’ve seen the ups and downs of when
analysts downgrade our stock and then
people are getting laid off and it has
nothing to do the performance so I want
to go to a smaller company the reality
is stability resides within you and
that’s part of this concept of owning
your career is making sure that you are
focused on those outcomes that you have
good narratives around the outcomes and
you understand the audience those people
who will hire you and pay for you to
reproduce those outcomes for them during
the last recession I would tell people
how insane they were to start looking at
larger firms is a solution if stability
resides within your skill set within
your capabilities and the product that
you develop out of yourself you know to
think that as I said before mommy and
daddy big corporation are looking out
for you that you go to your boss and
mommy and daddy big company and say hey
or anything yay or anything and they’re
30 levels down they don’t know anything
more than you do but they give you the
placebo you’ve got those security there
it’s been proven so often that economic
factors will impact whether or not you
get a job or a career so at the end of
the day you got to look out for your own
marketability and your own interest in
your own joy in life you have to find
that place where you can be
extraordinary you know company
independent absol
really that’s I mean that that really i
think is is the message here is that you
know you can when you’re looking for the
conditions where you can exercise what
it is you do exceptionally well Seth
Godin refers to it as being a linchpin
you can’t just relinquish yourself to
looking for someone else to create that
opportunity for you you know that so
many people will start out and say there
are no job openings well going back to
something I said earlier there are
plenty of people out there doing or
supposedly doing what it is you can do
better but they aren’t doing it well and
if their employer knew that there was a
better option out there they might trade
up so this comes down to messaging not
waiting and being reactive and seeing
what is it that’s out there you know to
follow a lot in kind of this real estate
analogy of rent versus own where’s the
best office space to go get its people
who are currently in it and you just
need to incentivize them to go somewhere
else well this is infinitely easier you
don’t look for the empty office space
that’s that’s not a very good harbinger
of location right I mean it just it’s
just not you’re looking for that space
that you want to get into and somebody
else wants to upgrade into something
else do you say on the beaten path or do
you go off the beaten path again using
the real estate of energy I you know I
don’t I don’t know that there that
there’s a distinction or a difference
between the 2i I think it’s a matter of
consistently getting your message out
there and doing that regardless of
whether you are looking for a job or not
looking for a job you you know again you
know this is a headhunter the best the
best talent out there is always
listening to the things that you have to
share and you have to say in large part
because they want to maintain a
relationship with you and they know if
they stay on your radar they’re never
going to have to pick up the phone and
call you the same goes with your message
of constantly being able to share value
to learn what other people are doing so
you know where you are on the curve but
that other people know out there
what your message is what’s your great
at and they’ll help share it as well so
you spoke about message and constantly
being out there so I first want you to
define message and I think the way
you’ve set it up until this point is
really to simplify know who you are know
what’s best them know what you love
doing yeah I always start out with this
exercise which is kind of a 30,000 foot
view on what you do and it’s
exceptionally important as an individual
to be able to share it but also to
empower the people around you with a
nice clean concise message that they can
share that they truly understand because
I how many people do you know that you
you kind of 10 generally get what it is
that they do but you don’t completely
understand what they do you know and and
that comes back to the individual so it
goes like this it’s what I call the XYZ
technique I help x.x is the audience do
or understand why why is that problem
that you solve so that Z Z is the
outcome you want them to help them
achieve so X is identifying who that
group of people is that you help who are
then and this is typically the
individuals you’re going to work for and
where I go in on this is is less you
know I help controllers I help project
managers I helped sales managers then
think about the problems that they have
so back up the individual themselves
what type of company are they working in
you know getting niching this down as
much as possible so that when you say I
help X this group this audience do or
understand why why that problem is the
thing that is keeping them up at night
it’s that thing that’s standing between
them and a promotion them and arrays
them and possibly keeping their job and
the so that z zzz that outcome they’re
seeking what does the world look like
when this problem is solved amazing i
facilitated men’s retreat surround the
country for many years and there’s a
model for creating a personal mission
that involves vision
this action equals mission now so you
know that’s what you just laid out so
succinctly there is beautiful glad you
liked it it is really the place for you
to discover where things are congruent
for you what really will allow you to
heal some of the stuff that bothers you
and be of service to others as well you
don’t want to be doing pointless work
you want to be doing purposeful things
and folks in the next few weeks I’m
going to be doing more shows about
purpose and really connecting with the
things that have meaning to to you as
part of your job search and part of your
career planning so keep an eye out for
those shows I’ve got some nice guests
lined up but back in heaven so we’ve got
owning versus renting and what about the
fearful renter who’s afraid to put the
down payment down of time and effort to
be able to own you know I there’s a I
don’t know if it’s a Buddhist saying or
where it comes from the obstacle is the
path and you can physiologically get
into and psychologically get into
understanding why it is that we resist
changed you know the amygdala firing up
which is our lizard brain going back to
when we came out of the primordial soup
you know fight or flight versus your
prefrontal prefrontal cortex which
actually gets really fired up when we do
new things and those two things being at
odds so I what I say is when when you
find yourself in that situation where
you where fear is kicking in it’s an
opportunity to sit back and reflect and
understand why and not just say whoa I
can’t do that because take a minute and
look this this is a process guys I mean
like it can it can take a while to
figure this out take a look at what is
that thing that’s standing between you
and where you want to go because that
that is the thing that you that therein
lies the path that’s what you’ve got to
work over you’ve got to work around
sometimes it’s the Opera
eternity itself to get where it is that
you’re headed you’re a parent right I am
one of the biggest jobs as a parent is
helping your child overcome their fears
absolutely and it’s a time to parent
ourselves or to get support and be
parented in order to break through the
self-imposed limitations that are based
on some place in our history that we
don’t probably remember but we’ve got a
breakthrough because otherwise we run a
box who was the live in a box well
you’ll hear performers say this all the
time about getting up on stage and
feeling exceptionally anxious being
terrified and they start and they get
into it and they’re good to go and it’s
a constant reminder that that the way
that you mitigate fear is by not getting
rid of it but consciously deciding that
it’s not going to stand between you and
that outcome you want to achieve which
means you have to be able to identify
when it rears its head you’ve got to
know what that feels like and you’ve got
to pay close attention to it so true you
also spoke about something and I ran
past it a little bit then translates
into personal branding and we did a show
about that more than a year ago the
folks he can find in the archives but if
you were talking with this individual
about branding themselves I know you
gave the mission statement summary but
if someone want to concretize it or
comfort eyes I mean you correct
pronunciation I would they begin their
process of figuring out how to build how
to identify their brand before they go
out and try building it yeah that’s a
really important question because so
many people and and I run into this a
webinar training that I do all the time
where I lay out that XYZ technique and
people immediately start firing back
which you know here’s what i came up
with and they’re doing this on the fly
well we’re in the midst of the webinar
which i think is great by the way I mean
it just tells me that it’s resonating
but the important thing and I remember
going through this myself when I came
out of the military
is an infantry officer and I was
transitioning the civilian sector and
that was the things that I thought were
important and valued are great but I’m
never going to hire me so the best place
for anyone to start is to go back and
talk to people you’ve worked for you’ve
worked with clients you’ve interacted
with and ask these questions in it and
i’ll get i get down to the nitty-gritty
i would use something like skype and i
would download a skype recorder and i’d
record these calls because you’ve got to
do a tremendous amount of listening and
asking questions like what is it that I
did for you that you found exceptionally
valuable why why what was it about that
that was so great what did that do for
you this again if you go back and think
of that construct of this XYZ is even if
you’re shifting industries like I was I
was never going to find anything like a
had in the infantry in the civilian
sector at least nothing that was legal
right so I was looking for leaders for
managers for folks who are going to hire
me that we’re dealing with similar
problems that had similar mindsets that
valued similar things and I didn’t
realize this at the time but that’s what
it was creating so it’s something that I
use all the time with clients who are
moving from one industry to another and
saying I’m really clear on where I’m
coming from I think I know where I want
to go but I don’t know if they value
what it is that I have and then the
truthful answer is I don’t either so
we’ve got to test this stuff you got to
come up with these stories you’ve got to
come up with the things that you think
are valuable that you have and we’ve got
to go find out if this other area this
other new audience values what it is
that you do amen brother you know we
don’t have a lot of time left today and
I want to make sure that there any other
points or somewhere you want to express
that you haven’t gotten to yet that we
cover that by interviewing hasn’t gotten
in the way of that I you know the bit
the big thing that I would say and and
this may sound a little trite but you’ve
got to take control of this if know if
you don’t take control of it somebody
else will because there’s your
day is being dictated to you daily and
in the vacuum of taking charge of it
someone else will and it’s not easy it’s
not easy but as trite as it sounds life
is entirely too short not to be doing
what you love and that’s all I’d say
that’s that is the main focus that I
have on a daily basis for everybody that
I write for and the videos that I’ll
shoot and all the work that i did that’s
that’s what it’s centered around I know
it’s not for everybody but that’s okay
if that’s what resonates with you that’s
where I like to dig in a lifetime is not
a long time this was grow Kevin thank
you how can people find that more about
you in the work that you do the best
place is just to go to my website or
Facebook page and it’s Kevin kermis calm
you can see it down below ke VI n k ER m
es calm super Kevin thanks for making
time I really appreciate it hey Jeff
thanks so much for thinking of me and
having me on again I appreciate it my
pleasure who folks will be back next
time with another terrific guest with
lots to share with you
[spp-transcript]
ABOUT JEFF ALTMAN, THE BIG GAME HUNTER
Jeff Altman, The Big Game Hunter is a coach who worked as a recruiter for what seems like one hundred years. His work involves career coaching, as well as executive job search coaching, job coaching, and interview coaching. He is the host of “No BS Job Search Advice Radio,” the #1 podcast in iTunes for job search with more than 2100 episodes.
Are you interested in 1:1 coaching, interview coaching, advice about networking more effectively, how to negotiate your offer or leadership coaching? Schedule a discovery call at my website, www.TheBigGameHunter.us
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