Are you looking for a new job, or interested in leveling up? Job Search Radio is your go-to resource for insider tips on job hunting and growing your career. Here’s your host, Jeff Altman.

Hi, this is Jeff Altman, the Big Game Hunter, and you’re listening to Job Search Radio.

You know, I’ve been a recruiter for a long time, and I remember when I first started in the field and I would look at resumes. After a while, I started to ask myself, “What happens to people when they turn 40? They all seem to disappear.”

And now I’m certainly not 40 anymore, and I take a look around, and you know, I see that the common age of resumes is 50, 60, sometimes older than that. And it begs the question of: what’s changed? Does job search for someone who is older any different than it really is for someone younger? And I thought I would bring in an expert to talk with about this.

So my guest is Mary Eileen Williams, who’s the author of a great book about job hunting called—I apologize—Land the Job You Love. She’s also a blogger and podcaster for Feisty Side of Fifty. That’s what each one of those is called. And she is also a job search author for HuffPost50. And I think she’ll provide you with great information. So Mary Eileen, welcome to Job Search Radio. Great to have you on board.

Well, Jeff, I have to thank you so much for giving me this opportunity. It’s my favorite topic to talk about, and I hope we can get some good information out there for people who are on the feisty side of 50.

I’m sure we can, because I know we’re both kind of feisty, you know?

Right.

So, Mary Eileen, what’s changed? Why did it suddenly become later than 40? Why are people working later, in your in your opinion?

Well, for one thing, I think it all has to do with our very interesting generation, the baby boomers. And if you are close to my age, and we probably both can remember the old adage we used to bandy about that, “Don’t trust anyone over 30.” So we were really bad when we were young. But I think—

I’m so glad no one can see my face when I heard you say that line. I’m taking the Fifth.

And I think, though, that we really have throughout our lifetimes, we have revolutionized all sorts of aspects of society. We’re not giving up now. We’re not going away anytime soon. And our careers, we want to contribute, we want to grow our own selves as people. And there is a whole shift, a whole different paradigm, so to speak, for job seekers over 40 and over 50.

I agree. And what I find is, number one, the previous many previous generations really didn’t like work. And I think ours really does. We enjoy contributing. We enjoy, you know, helping an organization be successful. In my case, helping people find work. And I know, for a lot of people, of course, there’s a different reason, which is financial need. Unlike previous years when there were pension plans that might assist people with retirement, those have long since disappeared. And thus, the need to work later exists for folks. Does that fit in from your thinking as well?

Oh, absolutely. That’s one thing. We boomers may not We may have revolutionized aspects of societies, but we weren’t particularly good savers in a lot of cases. And, yeah, that income is definitely important to people. But the other thing, too, is we have so many more options open to us for aging. I remember my dad hated his job, but he did it for 30 years. And I think that’s the case a lot of times with earlier generations. But we’ve We’ve got options. We have careers that we can choose that are not only remunerative—in other words, we get money for them—but we also can, you know, provide ourselves with this this internal satisfaction. We can live out our values, and, again, that contribution, that helping others, those kinds of things.

Starting From Experience: The Modern Job Seekers Guide for Professionals Over 50

Cool. So let’s go to the next part of this, which involves, you know, what sort of problems do those over 50 have? Because I know when I talk to younger job hunters, they perceive certain problems with age bias. You know, the boomers don’t really respect them. I know older workers tend to think that when they’re interviewed by younger workers, you know, ageism plays an effect, like, “You know, you can’t work for anyone younger than you, can you?” is the implied question that is never directly addressed. Am I just blowing smoke here, or are some of these honest from the experience of the older worker?

Oh, I think that you’re absolutely You hit on something that’s very real. Ageism, I believe, is out there, but I don’t think it’s as all-pervasive as we’ve been led to believe. However, if you are, say, an applicant 50-plus, and you are sitting across the desk from an interviewer who’s in their 30s, you can bet that they are holding some of these stereotypes. And I think it behooves us to be proactive in some cases because, you know, they’re likely not going to say anything, but they they may eliminate you from the position just because of your age. So I have some thoughts on that as well.

So, in terms of eliminating you because of your age, why do firms still hold that bias, in your opinion? And what can someone do to rectify it?

Well, I Again, being a little bit proactive in the job interview, if you get a sense at all that that person who’s interviewing you might be holding those thoughts, I figure you have nothing to lose, so you might as well bring them up. And a couple of things that I think are really critical: First off is the technical issue. I think that’s the number one stereotype that younger employers might hold against us. And there’s a very—

I’m going to leap in and say, the technical issue? What’s the technical issue?

Well, many of us, you know, there there is a fact that, you know, they believe we have not kept up technologically, you know, that our skills, that we don’t have the chops for the job, so to speak. And I think we have to proactively state that in a couple of ways.

Excuse me. First off, on your resume, I suggest that applicants of maturity, I like to call us, or seasoned applicants, put a special section underneath the formal education part of our resume. And I would call that “Ongoing Professional Development.” And then any kind of technical training you’ve had—and there are low-fee and free websites on the web we can discuss if you’d like—but anything like that, you don’t need to have a huge list, but I would list certain things.

So “Ongoing Professional Development,” when a reviewer reads that, they they can take from that that you do care to keep your skills current. And then, as I mentioned earlier, I think I’d proactively bring up something, you know, in whatever words suit you best, to say something like, “I pride myself on keeping current with my technical skills. Coworkers turn to me to help them in certain aspects technically.” Things like that, so that the interviewer can get that sense that, yeah, that is not a problem for you, especially if it’s—

So is that something you do in the resume, the cover letter, on the interview? How do you get that “I pride myself in keeping myself technologically current”? How do you say that?

Well, on the resume, as I said, I think that “Ongoing Professional Development” section is really something that can give and a resume of a mature job seeker a boost because that will differentiate you from the competition who might not have something like that.

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And then I would certainly bring it up in the interview. I don’t know on a cover letter. It wouldn’t couldn’t hurt, but depending on what you’re going for. But, as I said, especially if you get that sense that they might be negating your skills merely because of your age, that would be something you’d want to consider, again, addressing proactively rather than not mentioning anything.

So what are some of the tip-offs that an employer or an interviewer might give that they’re—I’m going to just be blunt about it—minimizing the older worker and not taking them seriously?

Well, I mean—

In the interview, I’m sorry, I wasn’t clear, in the interview, in particular.

Right. In the interview, some of the tips, I think you can tell if that rapport isn’t, you know, if that rapport isn’t you’re not building the rapport that you’d like, if they’re not asking you questions of real substance. If you are presenting your skills in a way and underscoring your skills with examples and things like that, and they don’t seem to be making an impact, I think it’s probably more of a gut feeling you could you could get.

Or if they’re, again, if they’re not asking you the kinds of questions that you want. Sometimes you have to be a little bit more proactive in bringing up those talking points that you wish to speak about as well.

And I want to come back to this topic in just a moment, but first I want to give everyone my job search insider tip for this show, which is to talk about how to really create a keyword-laden resume so that, this way, firms, when they’re looking at your resume or they’re searching for your resume on a job board, on LinkedIn, or just in their applicant tracking system, are going to identify you as someone who they’ll want to talk with.

And the easiest way to do it is look at job descriptions for what you do. Take a look at 10, maybe 15 job descriptions that fit what the kind of work that you do. And instead of just simply going, “Uh-huh, I can do that job,” start looking for the common patterns that exist within jobs, and start using the same language that these job descriptions have. If you’re in IT and they’re talking about a particular application, again, use that particular phrasing that’s used, and you’ll start to notice patterns of comments that will that you can bring into the resume, that you can incorporate into the cover letter, that will allow you to stand out much more than the average job hunter who’s just doing things hit-or-miss.

Now, I just want to mention to everyone that I have a lot of great content at my website, so if you found this tip helpful, I want to encourage you, come over to thebiggamehunter.us and go exploring there because I have video, articles, podcasts that you can listen to from my website that will help you find work more quickly. Plus, you can find out about the coaching and the call-in programs I have that will help you.

So let’s come back to Mary Eileen and pick up where we left off. And that was talking about how to sense when you’re losing the interviewer in the course of the conversation.

But now I want to flip things, and talk about what someone may unintentionally do that turns off the interviewer, and talk about their part in in creating that situation. So are there any things in particular you’ve noticed that people unintentionally do that turn off someone who’s interviewing them?

Well, of course there are certain cues that you’d be giving off nonverbal messages that are really important, in addition to what the words you’re saying. But, again, you want to keep your body language open. You want to show enthusiasm and interest through your vocal tone. You want to nod appropriately, give good eye contact. Eye contact actually is the number one issue that a lot of interviewers will say that if they’re the eye contact isn’t there, they’re not interested in in further information from that person.

There are all sorts of nonverbal cues that you can give off, but I want to underscore what you just said, your tip, because it was wonderful as far as searching out the job postings and making sure that your resume is filled with these hot-button skill words or these keywords. And I think the same is true for the interview. You want to make sure that you are go and get that position description, if at all possible, and that you are speaking to the skills that they are interested in, because if you’re not, you’re going to turn them off as well.

Exactly right. It’s like talking two languages. You’re talking one language, they’re talking another, and you’re not really communicating effectively. So it’s always good to speak the same language both on the resume and on the interview.

So I think one of the things that starts to happen to, I think, any job hunter, but I think it’s particularly damaging to the, what I call, veteran employee, is, as they run into into a longer job search than they wanted, they start to feel defeated and down. And thus, when they start to interview, and they they are greeted by the 28- to 34-year-old hiring manager, you know, it’s their heart sinks. They start to feel as though they’re going to be rejected right away.

Now, I know you’re a person who believes in positive thinking and and keeping a good attitude. And I think it’s important for the job hunter to do that as well. So how can a What are some of the advantages that a seasoned job applicant has that might help them restore their faith in themselves and deliver the goods on the interview?

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Well, I I think, first off, again, you bring up a really good point, Jeff, because I think, especially as a job seeker, a veteran job seeker—I like your terminology—we need to come from a position of strength. You do not ever want to apologize for our age, and we can add value in a lot of areas.

One of them is we’ve got, you know, a skill set we’ve gained over a lifetime. We also have market knowledge. Even if you are transitioning to a new career, you generally know who the competitors are, where the customers, you know, what’s important to the customers, these various aspects of the job market itself, or the the company’s target market, you might know that a younger applicant might not.

The other thing I think that we have to stress are the skills that are really important that are a benefit of age, one of them being critical thinking skills. We’ve been there and done that a lot. We have an understanding of how things go and how things run that, again, the years have gifted us with. So we want to stress our critical thinking skills, our communication skills, because we grew up at a time when you actually wrote letters, and spelled out words, and things like that, and spoke with people face-to-face many times. We oftentimes have superior communication skills to a younger applicant.

And also the ability to handle difficult situations. We’re not thrown as easily because, again, we’ve been there and done that a lot. I could go on and on on this point, but I really think that we do want to come from a position of strength, for sure.

I agree. And I also want to remind everyone you can’t do it from from the standpoint of—and I’m going to do a caricature here that we’ve all seen in one movie or TV show or another—”Hey, Sonny, when you were busy learning how to tie your shoes, I was doing your job.” So, you know, all that happens is you turn off the audience.

So, you know, what I know you were talking about is a good reminder for the job hunter, but it can’t ooze out in arrogant ways. If anything, I think it’s very important that people demonstrate that they can compliment the manager, so that that 28- to 34-year-old doesn’t feel threatened that they’re going to have a a loose cannon to contend with, which I think is one of the big fears, that they won’t be able to take direction. Is that what what you find with the people that you coach?

Well, Jeff, first off, you bring up a wonderful point, because I think a lot of times younger hiring managers are probably feeling threatened. They, you know, especially, again, if people stress their skills, etc. So I think that, as an older applicant, you want to, you know, follow up all of this, you know, “I’ve got the skills to do the job,” but I want to say, for one thing, “I enjoy working with people of all ages.” This is being proactive on that. “I thrive in environments where people are of different ages or, you know, there’s diverse environments, and I learn from people of all ages. And my job, I believe, is to make my managers to support my managers in any way that will help them the best.”

So you want to ask open-ended questions of how, you know, especially with a younger manager, “What do you believe to be the most critical components of the job? How can I support your efforts?” Those kinds of things. So you underscore that fact that, yes, you are there to make them look good.

Agreed. And I also want to chime in with being careful about language. A quick episode from when I I did recruiting for this one banking client some years ago: I had someone interview for a a senior vice president’s position, and in the course of answering questions, he talked about the guys and gals that reported to him. And the ears perked up of the person interviewing him at the term “gals” as being sexist.

Now, in the In this day and age, we we have a major shift going on in our country, and to make the assumption that the person sitting opposite you is married to an individual of another sex can be a mistake. So I just want to remind everyone about using language like “wives” and “husbands,” no matter who’s sitting in front of you, because that guy could be married to another guy. That woman could be married to another woman these days. And it’s something, I think, culturally, we need to be conscious of, because, you know, I’ve I’ve already heard of situations where people lose opportunities because they turned off the interviewer by by using the wrong term.

But I digress a little bit about language there. Let me come back to talking about some of the the good tips that you have for that over-50 job hunter. What sort of tools should they use? How do they wind up getting in front of key people in order to get more interviews and, eventually, hired?

Well, as with any job seeker, networking is the most likely way you’re going to find a position. Personal referral, studies show—and it really hasn’t varied that much over the years—that about three-quarters, or 75%, of jobs are gotten through personal referrals. However, that number increases quite a bit, or that percentage increases, the older you are, because a lot of times, unless you try to hide your age, you’re not going to be able to compete on your resume alone as effectively.

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So you want to make sure that you’re doing you’re conducting a proactive job search—I know I’ve used that term a lot, but it’s really important, especially for mature job seekers—and I would target, say, start out maybe with just a few, 5 to 10 or something, companies where you would like to work, turn to your immediate network, and see if you can identify, you know, I wouldn’t list all 5 to 10 in an email or something, but, you know, list three or four to various people, and say, “I’m targeting these companies in particular. Would you know someone who might work there?”

And then what you want to do is, “And may I use your name?” You get that contact information and say, “So-and-so, you know, Joe Schmo suggested I contact you,” that mutual person, and see if you could arrange for an a networking meeting or an informational interview, they’re often called. But a brief, face-to-face meeting where you will, again, have questions pre-prepared, you’ll look the part of a viable candidate, you’ll show your enthusiasm, you’ll ask questions that show that you are a knowledgeable insider—that’s what you want to project. And that way, you start to grow your network within these targeted companies. So that, again, conducting a proactive job search, I think, is the very best way, especially for older applicants.

You used that phrase, “knowledgeable insider.” Now, in the course of doing this informational interview, do you talk in Would someone talk about, “And I am looking for a job. Anything around here I could do?” Or do they just keep with the script about learning about the field more, asking insightful questions, asking if they might know someone who works for so-and-so? You tell me. What do you think is best?

Well, I think if you are doing an informational interview and you’ve set it up that way, you definitely do not want to go beyond those bounds of just asking for information; otherwise, they’re going to feel tricked.

And you can even approach it, “Doing some research on some companies, I was wondering if you might have—” and I would put a time limit in your email, and actually, if you phone them later on, too: “It won’t take— If you have 15, 20 minutes, I promise I won’t take more time than that,” because people are all busy, if you might be able to meet with them. And there’s a whole little way that you can go about this that we just don’t quite have time for at this point.

But then I would, as I said, “knowledgeable insider,” you want to ask questions that show they are not wasting their time with you. You do, you know, you’ve done your homework, you’re aware of what this organization does, these are some, you know, educated types of questions, so that, again, they’re going to feel good about having met with you.

What you also might do if you’ve built that rapport, is when you thank them—and a thank-you email, I think, is fine—if, again, that rapport feels like it would be appropriate, you can also say, “I’m, you know, I’m attaching my resume, if you wouldn’t mind looking it over and giving me some suggestions or whatever, or seeing how that might fit with some of the needs that are going on right now.” Those are some things you can do, but you definitely want to make sure that you are asking for information only.

Now, if they come up to you during the interview and or during the informational interview and say, “Well, gee, we’ve got several positions open that I think you’d be great for,” of course you’re going to respond.

Really?

“Yeah, really?” But you don’t want to in any way go beyond what the scope of what you’ve asked for, because, again, you do not want them to feel like they’ve been misled.

I agree. One little detail, folks, that I know I do in the course of my work, when I try to get a few minutes of someone’s time, I never use the predictable 5 minutes or 10 minutes. I’ll use a phrase like, “Can I get 7 minutes of your time?” And in the course of the conversation, I’ll say, “Ah, I asked for 7 minutes, I have 2 minutes left.” So it demonstrates I’m being respectful of their time. And when I’m done, I’ll say say something along the lines of, “Thank you for making time. I see I I I did this with 30 seconds to spare. I appreciate you making time today.” And we’ll move on from there. So—

I agree. One little detail, folks, that I know I do in the course of my work, when I try to get a few minutes of someone’s time, I never use the predictable 5 minutes or 10 minutes. I’ll use a phrase like, “Can I get 7 minutes of your time?” And in the course of the conversation, I’ll say, “Ah, I asked for 7 minutes, I have 2 minutes left.” So it demonstrates I’m being respectful of their time. And when I’m done, I’ll say say something along the lines of, “Thank you for making time. I see I I I did this with 30 seconds to spare. I appreciate you making time today.” And we’ll move on from there. So, Mary Eileen, how can people reach you? What’s your website? How can they stay in contact with you?

Well, first off, again, I am the blogger for feistysideoffifty.com, so they can go to the Feisty Side of Fifty blog. We also have a podcast that’s also called Feisty Side of Fifty, and you can get that on iTunes or any place that you get podcasts. And also on the blog, there’s a link to the radio show. You can find me on Twitter @FeistySideof50. And if you’d like to check out my book, which has lots more information on conducting a proactive job search, that’s called Land the Job You Love: 10 Surefire Strategies for Jobseekers Over 50, and you can find that on Amazon.

Terrific. And for folks who don’t know my work, I’m Jeff Altman, the Big Game Hunter. I coach people to help them find work more quickly. You can come over to my website, which is thebiggamehunter.us, where there’s plenty of great content there to help you find work more quickly, plus you can find out about the coaching that I offer.

Mary Eileen, I want to thank you for making time to be with us today. It’s really been great having you on the show.

Well, thank you so much, Jeff. It’s been my pleasure, and keep up the good work.

Will do. And folks, we’ll be back soon with more from Job Search Radio. Have a great day. Take care.