Job Search Can Be Transformative | JobSearchTV.com
By Jeff Altman, The Big Game Hunter
When many of you think of job search, it is tedious, taxing, and tiresome. It can also be transformative. My guest, April Mason, and I speak about how it can be transformative.
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Jeff Altman [00:04]
So my guest today is April Mason. April is a former Fortune 100 recruiter who also worked as an agency recruiter placing all levels of employees from entry-level to VP to Senior VP level executives. She’s seen thousands of resumes, worked with dozens of hiring managers and conducted hundreds of interviews. She’s worked in areas of hiring such as operations, sales, technology, audit, and many more. Eventually, she evolved into doing executive recruiting work and began placing leaders with total annual comps in the area of $600,000. Hey, April, welcome. Thanks for making time today. I really appreciate it.
April Mason [00:52]
Thank you. I’m so excited to be here. I just heard my LinkedIn beep. And so I just quickly muted and then turned it off. Hopefully, we don’t get those types of interruptions. But I’m really excited to be here.
Jeff Altman [01:04]
Excellent. So folks, we’re going to be talking about how Job Search can be transformative. Yeah, right. I’m joking, folks. But you know, this is obviously counterintuitive. Most people respond like I just did. Transformative, you know, they’re looking for square pegs for round holes. So tell me about how we can make this process transformative for people.
April Mason [01:31]
Yes, so yes, absolutely. What you said is 100% accurate. I’ve heard job search associated with words like soul sucking, defeating, confidence sucking– you know, just like these–we all have this association. We’d rather be cleaning our ovens, than beginning a job search, you know? And so, so yeah, my message is that it truly can be transformative, if we allow it to be interesting. And so one way that I, I’ll walk you through a journey, and you can just… you can stop me or, you know, ask clarifying questions as I take you on this journey. But the one place that every job search should begin, and where most do not begin. And maybe this is part of the problem is with discovery.
Jeff Altman [02:35]
And what do you mean by discovery?
April Mason [02:37]
So when we come to this place of recognition, where I feel like something’s off, you know, I feel dissatisfied in some way. Because I am no longer being challenged. Or because I finally realized toxic work environment or whatever, whatever that reason may be that prompts you to think, I think it’s, I think I need a new job, then, many of us go right into action. ‘Okay, well, then I need to update my resume, I need to reach out to this person, I need to…’ We go right, from that recognition of, I need a new job, to action. And there’s a big step in between that we are missing, which is that discovery step. And that step is huge. Because in that step, we get to sit in a place of possibility. We get to sit in a place of ‘well, have I considered this? Have I considered this? We get to ask ourselves questions. And for a moment, we don’t need to be attached to any outcome. We don’t need to be attached to a salary. We don’t need to be attached to a location. We don’t need to be attached to any of those parameters that might guide that action. Does that make sense?
Jeff Altman [04:06]
It makes perfect sense. One of the questions I use when I coach people and I get them at the beginning, is what’s most important to you in the next job or organization? What will you need to see or hear or feel in order to believe it’s a good choice for you,’ which sounds like that self-awareness piece? So you’re not just all leaping into action? I’ve got to do stuff. It’s what kind of job am I looking for? What kind of firm is it? What matters to me in this next organization, so that in this way, I know what I’m aiming for. And I’m not going to be ping ponged by corporate and third-party recruiters into being told ‘I’ve got this great opportunity. You’ve got to talk to us. You got to talk to this client of mine,’ that doesn’t really fit what you want, if that’s what they want, which is filling a job and or earning a fee, but doesn’t really relate to you. You can really identify what that is for you, then you’re at risk of being ping ponged, and maneuvered into something you don’t want to do.
April Mason [05:22]
Yeah, 100%. And I love the question too, because sometimes in a job search, you’re not looking to leave your organization. You know, maybe there are things within your organization that you really love. And you see there are opportunities. But you’re not sure there’s still an element of job search, because a lot of organizations, especially fortune 500s will require you to go through the process. But again, you’re not going to understand that until you sit down and ask yourself those questions. What do I want? Is my job here or is it somewhere else? Is it in my same industry or is it a different industry? Is it what I’m doing or do I want to expand? Do I want to . . . so a lot of these key questions get to be answered. And that begins your transformational process is by sitting in the place. What I like to have people do is go into LinkedIn, or Monster, Indeed, just some sort of, you know, database of jobs, and to, and to just explore with no parameters, don’t worry for a minute, if it’s remote or hybrid, don’t worry for a second, if it’s in the location you need, don’t worry for a minute, whether it’s in the salary, you need–just no parameters. Go in and start looking for job titles you think you’re interested in. And notice what jumps out at you. And I tell them to look for patterns. So for instance, like, I just spoke with a client and she, you know, said I love it when I hear the word collaboration. I love it when that when I hear imagination, and so some of those words were jumping out at her. And so even beyond those questions of is it here, is it there, is that data. We can even sit in the place of possibility and notice the description of the jobs that are really appealing to us. So that’s another example of an exercise of the discovery. And as we discover, we start to feel the energy of the job search, elevate, because we’re learning about ourselves and who doesn’t like to learn more about themselves?
Jeff Altman [07:35]
I could think of four people, but that’s about it.
April Mason [07:40]
I’m surprised you have four.
April Mason [07:43]
And one. One thing I’ll just add in to your evaluation questions is, is it the job? Is it the job and the firm? Is it the manager that I’m working for? I may like the work, but I don’t like the person I’m working for. Can I save it at this company or do I need to go somewhere else? Because often, that’s a parameter that people forget. If I don’t like working here, I have to leave. And it’s really I don’t like working for my manager. You know, she is a problem person to me. Other people may love her/him doesn’t really matter for me. They’re not the right person. To me, it’s always a question that people forget to ask themselves, right?
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April Mason [08:34]
Yeah, absolutely. And that’s why, you know, I’ll just put in a little plug here to just for coaches in general, because a lot of times coaches, reflect back to you things and ask you questions that you might not think to ask for yourself, just like what Jeff did now. You know, and so it’s like, ‘oh, I never even thought to ask, I never thought to look underneath that. And a lot of times, having a third party if coaching isn’t your thing or whatever, ask a friend, you know, and whatever it takes to get a third party into the mix when you’re going through this discovery process is really supportive when you begin
Jeff Altman [09:16]
And I, for me, not because I’m a coach, but I just find that you know, a husband, wife, partner, friend, former colleague, they’re well meaning amateurs. And their intentions are absolutely good. But they just don’t know. They think they know . Even the most convincing manager or leader in an organization. They know what they know, which relates to how they do the assessment. It doesn’t necessarily mean they know really what the market’s like and how to help someone get a job. They just know what they look for when they hire. Well, meaning amateurs are great as a fallback position, especially if you’re working with a coach, as a check and balance with the coach that you choose.
April Mason [10:11]
So, yeah, great point. So the next thing like, once you have gone through a significant discovery and you’ve received clarity, then the next thing people notice is that they’re not getting responses. You know, so they’re finding their dream job or what have you. They’re really excited. Like, this is it! I know this is it, or you know, whatever the scenario might be. Internal external job. You put in your application and nothing. And you put in another application and nothing. And so that’s where a lot of this, that’s where a lot of this ‘the self-defeatist’ kind of those feelings come into play, is it’s worse to hear nothing than it is even to hear something and it’s, you know, that ‘Thanks, but no thanks letter.’ Nothing is far more common. And it’s, it feels far more destructive. Because a lot of times people don’t know what’s going on on the other side, and they don’t understand it’s not you. It’s not you. But it could be your resume. It could be something about how the resume is reflecting you, not you. But the way the resume is reflecting you to someone else. And so the next step that I believe is so transformational and transformative, because I’ve seen it is when someone finally has a resume that reflects who they are. And the reason it’s so transformative is because when I hand someone a piece of paper, and yes, it sounds again, counterintuitive to actually have a piece of paper that I’m confident reflects me. But it’s possible. And when you take that energy, and that new piece of paper and the confidence that goes with it into a job search, again, you’re elevating the job search from that place of soul-sucking to that place of transformation, because you feel different. Does that and again, I’ll just pause. Does that make sense?
Jeff Altman [12:26]
Yes, it does because it boosts your confidence. And as I said on an interview that you did of me, when firms hire, competence is only one variable they look for. Self-confidence is the second thing I always point to. Because when firms hire, one of the things they want to feel is they want to trust someone. They want to be confident that you’re the solution to a problem. And where you can project self-confidence, even as an introvert, you’ve got your version of how you present yourself with self-confidence, it makes a huge difference to the person that you’re speaking with, because it inspires confidence that you are the solution to their problem.
April Mason [13:14]
Yeah, absolutely. Well said. And so in a resume, like how, you know, I’ll just give a brief because this could be a whole other podcast. But how does one do that in a resume?
Jeff Altman [13:26]
How does one do that in a resume?
And that’s the question that I’ve heard again, and again and again. And the answer is, is simple, of course, like most answers are, but it’s results-oriented bullet points, you know, speaking about your accomplishments, rather than your job description. So it’s not what I do. It’s, it’s, it’s almost putting what I’ve done into a context that a manager can project what you’ve done into their future. Because I did this, the manager can see how you can fit into, like you said, Jeff, that problem that they have. And so you’re creating a resume from your past accomplishments, but you’re doing it in such a way where the manager can then see how you fit into their future problems.
Jeff Altman [14:22]
So if you were to think back to a resume that you rewrote, or you wrote from scratch, and provided ar one or two sentences, illustration of that off the top of your head, so we know it’s not going to be perfect, it could be but the idea becomes a gives people a specific idea of how to construct it.
April Mason [14:45]
Absolutely. So. So let’s take a manager. So managers oftentimes will put a bullet point, something like this ‘I lead, mentored, hired and directed.’ I’m just coming up with words here, but you know, a team, a team of sales individuals, right? And so in that what they’re doing is they’re putting in a job description and they want to show you that ‘I don’t just don’t just have a team. I lead a team.’ And that’s good. They also want to show you that they participated in the hiring of the team. So they’re saying a word, putting in a descriptor, like interviewed. And so I see a lot of times what people are doing when they put in a lot of these descriptors, these verbs to describe what they do. But all of those verbs get watered down by providing too much information about the description of what you do. When I rewrite that, what I want to know is, ‘how many people do you lead?’ And so you’re qualifying. So I want to know, that example. So if you tell me you mentored someone, give me an example of a time where you mentored that person and it made a difference. So how, I’m so just going back to that bullet point, how I might have rewritten it is by saying, you know, ‘mentored a team of 12 sales individuals who were underperforming to a 98% customer satisfaction rate,’ something like that. So then what have I done, instead of saying that I lead, mentored, interviewed, I’m showing you that I led and mentored by the results that I just described for you. I quantified the team so someone who’s looking for a manager of a team of 50, might understand +that’s not my wheelhouse. And I also quantified for you the results. And so then, that manager was like, ‘Oh, my gosh, my customer service has really tanked since, you know, Bob left, can see, ‘Well, that’s the person I need. Look at what they did.’ And so then they’re taking your past accomplishment, plugging it into their future problem. And you did it all without saying lead, mentored, interviewed, whatever, you know, all of those verbs that a lot of us put into our bullet points to describe what we do.
Jeff Altman [17:41]
Cool. So you wouldn’t use that lead/mentor sentence? You just go right into the description?
April Mason [17:49]
Oh, yeah, I would go right into the accomplishment, right into the accomplishment and make sure you include a result. So I turned around the team. And what was the result? The result was 98% customer satisfaction, and any employer can understand how that would improve their bottom line.
Jeff Altman [18:08]
Excellent. And that makes perfect sense, since business is the language of numbers. So you’re giving them a number metric that allows them to see your impact on an organization. The one tweak I know I’ve sometimes suggested is an improvement from a 91 to a 98%. So, there’s, there’s a differentiator, and this is the way it was. I’m the hero of the cowboy movie! I saved the day!
April Mason [18:38]
Absolutely. Yeah, great point. And so and so then going back to what we talked about, when you have a resume that’s full of that, you’ve just leveled up your confidence, and you’re proud to hand in this resume that’s full of your accomplishments. You’re proud to show someone what you are, what you’ve brought to the table so that they can then see what you’re going to bring to the table. I just bought my desk there. Too much hand talking. But you know, so that’s again, going back to what we were talking about. So it’s transformational because when you have a resume like that, it transforms the whole energy of the job search, and I’ve seen it, I’ve seen it. So I know it’s possible,
April Mason [19:25]
Without a doubt, and I’ve seen it too. So we’ve covered two points so far. What’s the next one that helps someone have a transformational experience during this process?
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April Mason [19:38]
The next one is networking. And so and you touched a lot on this, Jeff, but again, when you have that confidence, and you have a LinkedIn profile on a resume that reflects your accomplishments, you feel more confident in reaching out to your network. And, and not so much like that. ‘Oh, I know that that job’s available, but I don’t think I’m qualified to . . . that jobs available and I know they needed me, you know, and so so it brings a different level of confidence to the networking that is imperative for that job search. When, you know, like, and a lot of times, and I know a lot of coaches talk about this, too, when you’re reaching out to people, even cold contacts, people that you don’t know, or are maybe second degree contacts, it gives the person you’re asking to refer you or introduce you to someone else, more confidence in you. So you’re more likely to get that introduction in the first place. And then, or if you’re reaching out to someone cold, and you are confident in what’s being portrayed on your LinkedIn profile, then you are, you just bring a different energy, you’re just bringing in a different level of confidence, knowing that they’re going to check you out and be like, ‘Oh, I actually do want to talk to her! Oh, wow. He looks like someone that I’d be interested in hiring, you know, and so that it brings a different confidence to the networking.
Jeff Altman [21:22]
And thus, the goal of the networking, of course, is building the relationship or recreating, or reactivating the relationship that you’ve had with someone so that they reconnect with you. They feel good about talking with you, especially at times, when you might not be aggressively looking for work. But it may come up in the not-too-distant future. No one likes to feel like they’re one of those people. You know, I show up when I need you. Otherwise, don’t expect to ever hear from me. And don’t you ever contact me? I’d never . . . so many people conduct themselves in that way.
April Mason [22:09]
That’s a great point. And I love what you said about No, no, no, I forgot it
Jeff Altman [22:17]
Was it the ‘one of those people.’
April Mason [22:19]
No, it was before that it was before that. Whoa, just basically keeping keeping your network fresh. Looking, not always contacting people when you’re …when you need them. But it’s the same thing with that resume and that LinkedIn profile. So if you just finished a big project, add it to your resume. Add it to your LinkedIn profile. So as you’re keeping those networking connections fresh. They’re seeing the addition on your LinkedIn profile. They’re seeing the updates. Post an obstacle you overcame in the process of that project, and people are going to notice that. People are going to see they’re going to relate. And so it’s not like a one-and-done thing, even if you’re perfectly happy in your job. This job search process is something that can begin to transform you. Right now, as you implement these techniques.
Jeff Altman [23:23]
And with LinkedIn, folks, I’ll just remind you, since you’re probably connected to people that you work with, you will want to turn off, on your privacy settings on LinkedIn, you want to turn off the notifications to people in your network that you’ve made a change, so that you’re not telling your boss ‘Hey, I just updated my LinkedIn profile. Maybe you should talk to me about staying.’ Because the first instinct is she/he’s updating their profile. They’re all looking for a job.
April Mason [23:58]
Yeah, that’s a good point. Unless you’re just posting about a project, right? If you’re posting about that project you just finished, you know, and it’s not confidential or whatever, then yeah, then it’s okay for your boss to see. But that’s a good point to turn off the notifications in the situation, you are actually looking.
Jeff Altman [24:20]
Excellent. So I’m a believer that people should be regularly updating their resume every three, four months at a minimum, under the premise that number one, it’s helpful for review time, because your manager may leave, your boss may leave and now you’ve got someone critiquing you who doesn’t really know you. And so often people feel stressed at times like that, and they’re not prepared. So the goal becomes very simply, by doing this on a regular basis, you have an opportunity to have it up to dat in case (Here it comes. Corny, sound effect), opportunity knocks, and someone reaches out to you about an opportunity that makes sense for you. You’re ready. You’re not constructing the resume, feeling pressure, stress, conflict with your work, ‘oh my God,’ and all that fear that brings up the cortisol levels that cause people to worry. So keep updating your resume and profile regularly. It just serves you. Yeah. Now we’ve covered three things so far, that can make something transformative.Is there a number 4?
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April Mason [25:39]
Yes, yes, there’s a number four and final. So when you have this updated resume that talks about your accomplishments, and you’ve been selected for the interview process, it is going to uplevel your interview immensely. Why? Because that resume is the guide. The resume is the guide for the recruiter, the resume is the guide for the hiring manager especially. So when they are, when they’re starting from this place of already understanding your accomplishments, that’s what you get to talk about. That’s what the interview will be about. Rather than you having to explain so much up front, you will dive right into the conversations about how I overcame the obstacle, how did I get that result and that conversation is transformative in itself. Because you’re gonna light up as you talk about your accomplishments, you’re going to sound competent and confident as you talk about your accomplishments. And so having that type of resume, up levels the interview, and as most of us, well, I don’t know if most of most of you, but most of us in the inner circles, who have been in the inner circles of recruiting, understand the job offer negotiation starts right when they see the resume. So the resume, the interview, it’s like, you might think you’re not negotiating your job until you actually get the verbal offer or the written offer in hand. And that’s not the case. And so, by having the resume written in this way, you’re transforming the entire job search, without even knowing it, because people are coming in with a higher impression of you. And so whereas, you know, they might, there’s a, there’s oftentimes a range for the job, the salary range, you know, that this job has been slated for a certain range, they’re automatically thinking of you at the higher end of the range as soon as they see that resume. And when you go in for that interview., rather than going through the weeds of tell me about this, and tell me about that, the hiring manager is already diving into a conversation about your accomplishments, which is up-leveling them even more, and up-leveling you even more in their eyes so when you get that offer, you’re starting your negotiations from a higher range than that person who doesn’t have the results oriented resume, who hasn’t thought about what jobs they want, who didn’t go through that discovery process? And, and who didn’t, you know, network from a place of confidence. So there are four ways already that you’re up-leveling, and creating this transformational experience, rather than the soul sucking experience that most of us have had at some point, and many of us still have with our job search.
Jeff Altman [28:51]
It’s always so sad when people get on the conveyor belt and allow themselves to be processed, like cheap meat.
April Mason [29:02]
Yeah, I don’t know any other way, though. You know, we don’t know any other way until you hear a podcast or an interview like this and go, ‘Oh, okay, I get it, or start to get it.
Jeff Altman [29:14]
Yeah. And it takes more. These are the four basics, the four pillars of making this transformative. And I know April knows ways and I know ways as well, that we can elevate that even higher. But we want to give you basics today that identify good ways to make some changes so that you develop more confidence, you can be more effective all the way through. But I’m curious April, What haven’t we covered yet that we really should say?
April Mason [29:51]
That’s a great question.
Jeff Altman [29:53]
I know you asked that of me.
April Mason [29:55]
Yeah. I’m just I think that that job offer negotiation piece. So you know, whereas most of us think of it at the end of the process to start to think of it as a beginning. So right from the first conversation you have with that recruiter is where you start negotiating your job offer. And at the end of the process, you’re tweaking, you know, like, you’re going for that extra, you know, five to 10,000 more, but you don’t know that you’ve already received a job offer that’s higher than what, you know, again, the person who didn’t go in with this mindset had, so you’re already starting from here. And you know, getting up here at the end of the process. And it’s, and it’s really exciting. So I think the take home, and that that’s one thing we didn’t talk in about in depth. But I want to add to the whole mindset of transformation.
Jeff Altman [31:00]
And it’s a good one. Folks, recruitment, recruiters are negotiating, from the time they asked the question, ‘so how much are you looking for?’ That’s the negotiating question. Now, you think this is data collection; it’s negotiation. And when they follow up by saying, or make other sorts of sounds, and facial expressions that indicate Oh, that wasn’t what I was hoping to hear, most Job Hunters suddenly get nervous. ‘It’s too high a number, I have to be flexible.’ Because that’s what mom and dad always taught us to do, is to come back and ‘I could be a good girl, I can be a good boy, I could be flexible.’ But why? That’s part of the act that sometimes is used. And the truth is, at the time you’re asked the question when they’re negotiating, you don’t know enough about the job, your manager, the team, how you’re going to be evaluated and assessed for success in the role. You don’t know enough of that, to really determine whether you should be flexible. What I encourage people to do is what I call defer and deflect. But that’s the idea of simply saying, ‘you know, could you give me a sense of what the range is for the role?’ ‘I asked you first.’ Yeah, no, I’m just curious, what’s the range for the role, and they tell me ‘I could work within that. But I also want you to understand that I really don’t know enough about the job to really fully agree here. So don’t take that as being a firm commitment on my part. Because I haven’t met my boss, I’ve just seen a job description, I don’t have an idea of how she or he’s going to evaluate. So can we come back to that later on?’ Defer, deflect, and that will really help you get through the money questions. that’ll show up at the beginning, where as you said, they’re starting the negotiation. And now you’re catching it.
Finding Career Fulfillment, Happiness and Satisfaction Again
April Mason [33:12]
Yeah, absolutely. And when you come in with that mindset, that confident mindset, it doesn’t feel quite as uncomfortable to defer and deflect because you’re coming from a place of, they’re talking to me because they saw something they want. And so and so there, there isn’t that need to be flexible, hopefully, you know, again, as you’re leveling up, and as you’re following these transformational steps of the job search, that you’re coming into those conversations with a totally different mindset. So it won’t feel as uncomfortable because you are you’re here you don’t think of yourself as here you’re here. And you think of it as a two way street. Not just you recruiters coming after me for all this information. It’s like no, I get to have my information, too. I get to know if this job is right for me, you know, and so we’re here, not here.
Jeff Altman [34:15]
Excellent. April, this has been a lot of fun. How can people find out more about you, the work you do. everything, everything everything.
April Mason [34:25]
So my LinkedIn profile of course is is easy if you just look up April R Mason, your career captain. And, and then if you also My website is www.twelvenooncc.com. So that’s TwelveNoonCC (for career consulting).com . Twelve is spelled out. So not the number 12 But 12 spelled out and that’s because 12 noon is when the sun is at its highest point when things are the brightest and the warmest. And that’s how I see your job search and your job transformation.
Jeff Altman [35:04]
Sweet. I love that. April. Thank you. And folks, we’ll be back soon with more. I’m Jeff Altman, The Big Game Hunter. Hope you enjoyed today’s interview. If you’re watching it on YouTube, if you’re seeing it on LinkedIn, wherever you’re watching it or listening to, because it’ll come out as a video podcast, share it, leave a comment, do something that lets people know it was worthwhile. I also want to invite you over to my website, TheBigGameHunter.us where there’s a ton in the blog that you could watch, listen to or read that will help you find work more quickly. Plus, there’s information about my courses that you can rent or buy, my books and guides, there’s just a lot there that’s available. Also, you can schedule time for a free discovery call or scheduled time for coaching because I want to help you. Lastly, connect with me on linkedin at linkedin.com/in/TheBigGameHunter Have a terrific day and most importantly, be great
Shifting Your Mindset During Your Job Search
ABOUT JEFF ALTMAN, THE BIG GAME HUNTER
Jeff Altman, The Big Game Hunter is a coach who worked as a recruiter for what seems like one hundred years. His work involves career coaching, as well as executive job search coaching, job coaching, and interview coaching. He is the host of “No BS Job Search Advice Radio,” the #1 podcast in iTunes for job search with over 2400 episodes.
Are you interested in 1:1 coaching, interview coaching, advice about networking more effectively, how to negotiate your offer or leadership coaching? People hire me to provide No BS career advice whether that is about a job search, hiring better, leadership, management or support with a workplace issue. Schedule a discovery call at my website, www.TheBigGameHunter.us
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