Taking charge of your career

EP: 2241 So many people board “the conveyor belt of life and career” and forget who owns their life and career. Diana Alt and I speak about being in charge of your career. 

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Taking Charge of Your Career | No BS Job Search Advice Radio

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Jeff Altman 00:00
So, my guest today is Diana Alt, a career strategy coach on a mission to help you be the boss of your career, so you can find ideal work, be valued, and get paid. She's a connector who uses her experience in corporate product development roles, and as a business owner to help people make the most of their work life. Instead of feeling like it's a long, slow march to oblivion and death. How are you? Welcome.

Diana Alt 00:34
I'm doing great. And I feel like I just want to slice that recording out and just put it on my website and my social and everything like that. That's the best anyone's ever given me an intro, I think

Jeff Altman 00:46
I like to show for sure. Thank you so much.

Diana Alt 00:50
You're most welcome.

Jeff Altman 00:51
Thank you. So, you and I work with people who were trained well, the school system got them into a job. And they got on that conveyor belt, and it's been moving them along. And they realize it's not fun being on the conveyor belt. It's not like when you're eight years old and getting on an escalator for the first time you go, wow, escalators, this is fun. Well stop being fun sometime, years before, but we stay on them. So how the heck do you work with people to get them off the conveyor belt making their own choices again?

Diana Alt 01:27
Well, so this is such a great topic. And there's, there's something that's really, really important to know, whenever you're going to work with somebody that's trapped on the conveyor belt. And that is, do they understand that they're on a conveyor belt to begin with. So sometimes people are on the conveyor belt, and there are just legit situations where it's fine. Everybody puts a different emphasis on career growth, or their job and their life. And some people are happy to just have a job, that's kind of okay, that's predictable, or, you know, they know exactly what to do, whether they like it or not, because they're putting their effort into other parts of their life. And it fits together. Sometimes it's Stockholm Syndrome. And they're in the middle of just being almost whipped, like, you know, a plow horse by their management. And they don't even know that it's bad because they get treats every other Friday,

Jeff Altman 02:28
Plow horse, for those of you who don't know the term 1950s movies, 1800s, America, horse working farm and field. They pull the plow.

Diana Alt 02:43
Thank you. So that's that. I'm glad you did that. Because I grew up my, parents and grandparents for generations back they were farmers. So, I know plow horse analogy. But Thanks for clarifying that.

Jeff Altman 02:55
I am an urbanize. I know a lot of urbanites to watch or listen, I got to make sure that they understand.

Diana Alt 03:01
Oh, that's amazing. I'm so glad you did that. But you have to understand, first off, are you want? Do you even know you're on a conveyor belt? Second off, is it a problem? And then if a person is starting to know that they're on a conveyor belt, and starting to sense that something's not right, then I start asking them questions about what's going on with their work, and how it fits into their life. And this can be really casual. I think, very often people think that coaches have this magic bag. Oh, gosh, I'm so sorry. We're live guys. I thought I had that on silent. My apologies. So, we think sometimes that coaches have these magic, really hard questions that are complicated. And they're really not. They're really not. We have a lot of things where we just say things like, tell me more, or the immortal Dr. Phil, question of how is that working for you? But what I like to do when I'm working with people that know that something's maybe not quite right with the conveyor belt, is ask them questions that align to what I call the four pillars of an ideal job. And I don't say

Jeff Altman 04:20
The four pillars of an ideal job?

Diana Alt 04:23
Yes, there are four Jeff, four, some people might say five, some people might say three, I think there's four. So, and I, I sometimes introduced the pillars, and I sometimes just talk to people, and I actually find that it's more effective to just talk to people instead of positioning myself as this expert with four pillars and I know more than you do, because I have some pillars. I asked questions about, you know what I'm talking about Jeff, you know, even in the coaching racket for a long time, the four areas or pillars or whatever you want to call them an ideal job are number one, is it the right work for you? Number two, are you working for the right leaders for you? Number three, are you working in the right culture for you? Number four, are you working in the right environment for you? So, all of those things, if they are right, that's as close as you ever gonna come to an ideal job.

Jeff Altman 05:31
Some interruption here for a second. Of the four, which one do people tend to give short shrift to most often

Diana Alt 05:40

Jeff Altman 05:42
I knew that I knew that.

Diana Alt 05:44
The number one is culture. And the number two is the work. Because people confuse so the right work for you. Let me let's unpack that for a second. And then we can hit like culture, I also get a lot of questions about the difference between culture and environment. And they're definitely different. So, I used to have three pillars, and then I split them up, because I realized they were different. The right work for you is work that uses your strengths and talents, uses skills you actually enjoy using and is enough challenge for you and where you're at in your life in your career. And so the first two that I like to distinguish between your strengths and talents and skills, because what happens with a lot of people is that they are trained in a certain set of skills or a domain, maybe they're an accountant, they crush being an accountant, they've worked their way up to being a controller, they are good at all the things that are involved in accounting, so that they can be a controller, but their talents and strengths, maybe more in the team building or strategic thinking or things like that. And their jobs sometimes don't align up, depending on how their role is defined. There's a difference between skills you're good at, and talents you have. And there's also a difference between skills you're good at and skills you like using. So, I like to pick apart with people. Which type of skills are you using? Are you using ones that you're just good at and you're used to using or are using ones that you're enjoying using the best is when you get a little bit of both? So, and then the strengths and talents I like to explore I actually use Clifton strengths assessment in my practice, a lot of career coaches use a million assessments, and I don't like that I have one that I use. Because we let the man the boss, the company, the society tell us what we should be. And that's not always the same as the truth. In my example, I actually spent a lot of years in jobs where I was, oh, project management, execution focus, get stuff done, I can do that. I'm analytical, and I can get stuff done. And I can get a team to work together to do that. And I got told for years, you're not a strategic thinker. And then I worked for a boss that actually recognized that I was a strategic thinker. And I also got more and more into Clifton strengths at that time, revisited all my assessments and figured out six of my top 10 strengths are in strategic thinking. So, I had been for 20 years letting people tell me that I'm not good at strategic thinking when it's actually my top area of skill. Because it was not convenient for my company to use me in a strategic role. It was convenient for them to use me in an execution role, because I was good there. So, I love to pick apart those things with people.

Jeff Altman 08:53
You know, just simply say for so many folks, you outsource your thinking to your employer. You're outsourcing your life and your career and the decisions involved with it to someone else. I'm not saying you shouldn't listen to opinions. But it's your choice. And yeah, it's up to you to make decisions. Yes, not put yourself in the position where your employer's deciding, you know, we need agents such and such role. And how, even though you hate that kind of work, we need a body in that seat.

Diana Alt 09:32
Yes, yeah. And it's actually the hardest when you're really great at it. And then somehow you become viewed as irreplaceable because you're so excellent those skills, and you can't get promoted to save your life. So, but your point about outsourcing responsibility for your life is really good one and I have a friend who might be an interesting guest for you on your show. His name is Andy storge. And he wrote a book last year called Own your Career on your life. And I was talking to him very early, like he didn't even have the full draft done. But he knew the title, you knew the mission, what the book was going to be. And I said, buddy, I love you. But I'm so mad, because you took the brand. That is just the best brands to say, how I feel about this process. So, you can't outsource your life, you just can't expect to, to live a cool one. Most of the time.

Jeff Altman 10:28
You know you better than anyone else. Yes. And what happens is, for a lot of folks, they get mixed messages from all over the place. Talking about yourself, everyone has an opinion they have limited information, but they don't.

Diana Alt 10:45
Well, and they have an agenda and their agenda, your company, or your boss. Their agenda, their agenda is very rarely, let's make sure Jeff can have the most awesome life possible. Like that's not, that's not the agenda of the director of accounting that you work for. The agenda of the director of accounting is to have the best accounting team to serve the company, which is a whole different ball of wax. And there's merit to that, like, there's a there's a place for that. And there's I respect people that that follow their mission as managers in that way. But that's not how you manage your life.

Jeff Altman 11:28
No. So we're trying to get people to get off the conveyor belt here. And we've been a lot of different places already. Yeah. And we've been talking about the sacred four pillars. I'm making them sacred, right.

Diana Alt 11:44
I like the sacred I might steal that.

Jeff Altman 11:46
The scared, reverb with that, the sacred four pillars. And we've spoken about work that involves your talents, and your personality and fits you and suits you. You didn't use those words. I like suit.

Diana Alt 12:06
I like them. I like them. suit is a good word. Yeah,

Jeff Altman 12:11
it fits like a good suit. And then we're talking about the culture of the organization. Now, I'm gonna do a setup here on my question.

Diana Alt 12:23
Absolutely, I can't wait for this.

Jeff Altman 12:25
So, I worked on surge for a long time. It didn't take me long to figure out the candidates wrong to behave. But it took me a while to figure out my institutional customers were also on that behavior. And I realized one day that I'd never heard an employer ever and this goes on to this day. I never heard an employer say to a job seeker, you know, I have no problem. And, you know, I've inherited a team, they're absolute imbeciles, and my predecessor got fired. And so did her's, the last four people who sat in the chair that you're going to be sitting in, they will quit within four months. It doesn't take a genius to figure out that my butt is on the line, I need to hire someone who's going to save it. They never say that even though to be true. Instead, they will have happy smile button faces.

Diana Alt 13:22
Yes. last four people left within four months, because they just happened to get better opportunities I mean.

Jeff Altman 13:28
Anything would have been better. would have been a better opportunity than this one. So yeah, given the fact that you're going to be on good behavior. And so, are they? How do you recognize the right culture since everyone's cottoning one another?

Diana Alt 13:49
Well, one of the top things you have to do, and this is, this is hard work. But actually, digging into this stuff, is hard work. I like to try to talk to people that aren't in the organization as much as possible, that are that are in the organization or recently left the org know people outside the interview cycle. That's what I meant. I fumbled over that a little bit. But if I'm going to interview at Acme Corp on Friday, and I'm going through a process there, of course, I have a few questions that I like to ask people in an interview. I'll get to that in a second. But I also like to go find people that number one work there in peer roles now and ask them questions, ideally, people you've known in the past through your network, but I'm not scared to message a stranger on LinkedIn and say, hey, I see that you're a marketing coordinator at Acme Corporation. I'm interviewing to be a senior marketing coordinator and at Acme Corp, what can you tell me about it? And then also look for people that left recently. Same thing has asked them question. Hey, I noticed you used to work at Acme Corporation, I'm interviewing there, I'm interested to learn a little bit more for somebody that you know, was there for a while, what can you tell me? So those are some things and people will tell you, more than you realize. Even current employees will tell you more than you realize. Now, one thing that's really important is to know what kind of culture you like, and what kind of environment you like. And I mentioned earlier that they're different. I'm mostly talking about culture. Around number one are people treated like human beings with dignity. And number two, are the values of the company actually expressed inaction from the top down? Everybody loves to say our values, our integrity, and teamwork and all that stuff? That's great. It's painted on the conference room wall.

Jeff Altman 15:47
Need to say that I didn't run to you. Right,

Diana Alt 15:51
Exactly. And so, I like a job that I worked I while ago, I was in a company that had some values that I really liked on paper. And me and my peers worked according to those values. And then I had a direct boss for a while that worked according to those values. So that little microcosm was great. But the longer I was there, and the farther my reach went, the more I realized it was not coming from the top down. So, this, you know, the CEO was not operating according to values, he was operating against some of the values and there was some really crazy stuff we found going on, related to sexism and racism and stuff that was getting swept under the rug. That was awful, even though my little team seemed happy. And so, I like to ask people at every single level, you know, I've heard such and such are the values, maybe I would just pick one or two, I hear that putting the client first is one of your top values. I would love to hear how that is lived day to day, how does that fit into your policies and procedures. And especially right now, it's a really good barometer for things related to diversity, equity and inclusion. Because everybody after George Floyd was murdered, everybody's like, oh, my God, we don't have a DEI program, we need one of those stat. And so they put stuff together, some companies did the hard work of really putting some training together, addressing it, doing workshops, figuring out how to make it part of the day to day, and how to make it part of policies and other people just made a web based training that you had to go and click through and take the quiz at the end. And that was their DEI program. And that's where it stopped. It's one thing if you start there, and then you do some of the other stuff, but most companies just stop there. And it's actually more insulting. And so, I like to hear what are these things that you are doing day to day that embody values, I, that company that I worked for, where you know, the values looked pretty good on paper, actually, and, and my team did well with them, the leaders would use them as a weapon. So, passion was one of the values and that's actually the one that after leaving the Stockholm Syndrome situation, working there for a few years, I actually don't like passion very much. I think purpose is better than passion and kind of in general in life. But what would happen is certain values, if you express that you were getting burned out, or tired of something, people will say, well, if you would just be accountable for this, or if you would just still have passion for that. You wouldn't be that it's awful. Its emotional intelligence is also used as a club by corporate by a lot of leaders and corporations as grits. So, I don't like I get really testy about how people talk about grit, and emotional intelligence. I like to say that the most effective, the most talented people in terms of emotional intelligence are narcissists. So, because they know how to press buttons, they know how to read people, they know how to influence other people's emotions, but they use it for evil instead of for good. So basically, asking questions about how these values are lived day to day. And where do they sit in policy and procedure and how you do work is a really good way. Most places can't say it.

Jeff Altman 19:27
They can't

Diana Alt 19:29
They cannot say it and I love working with people on it. And yeah, that's some of the best things and then there's some other questions you need to understand. A lot of times people ask questions like, well do people you know, drag their feet, and consider the team building quarterly team building outing as you know, is that a chore or is it something they look forward to? And that tells you a lot about their culture. and I say no, that actually tells you about their environment which is equally important. But most of the snacks in the break room and free gym memberships, and all of that stuff, those things can be really handy. But very rarely do they actually tie to values. So that's why I like to divide culture being the values in Are you treated like a person from environment, which covers things like fair pay? Is it a highly structured or less structured environment? how flexible is it? And sort of, in general, does this work with my life? You know, am I gonna miss every one of my kid’s soccer games, because they're so strict about the time, it's fine. Everybody has different things that they like, but you have to know what it is that you want. And then be willing to take some time to do some digging, and figure out what's

Jeff Altman 20:50
what. So, so often, because people have been trained to be nice obedient individuals, because they've been beaten regularly for a good part of their life. This is part of being on the conveyor belt. Yes, they become numb to their pain.

Diana Alt 21:09
They're either numb or they're afraid, and there's a numb or afraid is very different from you know what that thing's just not that big of a deal to me. And I can tell the difference pretty quickly when I'm talking to someone. A really good example of how this plays out relates to compensation negotiation. So I, I think that it's a lot of fun to teach people about how to research you know, market rate compensation, even if you don't get it as perfect as some HR compensation pros can get it, you can make go a long way from I don't know, to Oh, crap, I'm $10,000 under paid in a half hour online. And what happens is people are terrified to ask for an off cycle raise to get them closer to market, right. They're afraid they're gonna get fired, which rarely happens. And they also are terrified. Many people are terrified to negotiate a job offer. And this year, I've made a little bit of a hobby of asking some recruiters and people leaders specifically about job offer negotiation. A key fear that people express is, if I asked for more pay, or more, you know, vacation days, or whatever it is, and their comp package they want to change. I'm afraid they're just going to rescind the offer because I asked. And so, the two questions I've been asking HR pros all year are number one, how many offers Do you all expect to have negotiated? Like, how many do you expect prepare for? And the answer is 100%. For most people in corporate knowledge, jobs, which are a little different than things like hourly pay, if you go to work at a retail establishment or you know, fast food, something like that is a little bit different. That's not the market share. But in a corporate knowledge job, which is what I mostly work with salaried people. Recruiters expect and think it's okay. For 100% of people issued an offer to ask for more. That doesn't mean you're always going to get more you might have to have a conversation. But it's not unusual.

Jeff Altman 23:24
differentiate between corporate recruiters and third party. The corporate recruiters have that expectation that third party recruiters who are staring at a commission check. They're thinking I'll be quiet take the offer.

Diana Alt 23:37
Well, that's bad, sir. So yes, I'm with you on that. There's some bad3rd party recruiters and I've, I've worked in negotiated through both third party and through corporate recruiters in my own career, you know, 20 years in tech. The second question I asked is, when was the last time you saw an offer rescinded? Because someone tried to negotiate? The answer 100% of the people I've asked this question to be never, never, never, that doesn't mean people get everything they want. It doesn't mean every job is accepted. Sometimes you just straight up cannot come to terms, but never from a 22-year-old, straight out of school, all the way up to executives. Never. So, negotiating for compensation trying to improve your life. It's okay. It's okay.

Jeff Altman 24:36
So true. So, we're getting them moving off the conveyor belt. And they're looking around, they're starting to explore other things. And they're hearing some stuff that's interested interesting to them. And now they're afraid they make the wrong decision. Oh, I know what it's like to get flowers on this farm. But if I go to the next farm, and you know, I become a pony ride, like what's going to happen to me?

Diana Alt 25:11
Yeah, that's a good one. Love that one. So, um, one of the things I take all of my job search clients through is a little tool I call a once needs analysis. And so, I've seen many other coaches that create a tool that's basically an offer compare. So, if I get an if I get an offer from Acme and an offer from XYZ, how do I compare those offers? They're usually compensation focused. And they're designed to tell you do you take the offer from Acme? Or do you take the offer from XYZ, I take a completely different approach. In the wants needs analysis, I asked people to first fill out their deal breaker of what they need in a job. And that's related to compensation. It's related to culture, it's related to growth opportunity, and there's just there's a whole list of various things that relate to my four sacred pillars of an ideal job. So, I have them do that. And then I also have the dream. So, it's like, what would the dream for that next role be and I'm not talking about like be Elon Musk, right hand man at Tesla kind of dream. I'm talking about, you know, for the lane that you're in, what would be the dream. And so that's usually higher comp, better benefits, etc. and closer match to life purpose, or, you know, more longevity or more training opportunities. A lot of people I work with her in tech, and so their deal breaker column will talk about, I at least need to get a contract job that makes this hourly rate. So, I combined my benefits. It's that kind of thing. And I need them to not actively be racist jerks. But I don't necessarily need it to align to all my top life purpose because I got to eat and live indoors. In the dream column, they might say I want a full-time job, I would love for it to be at a high growth FinTech company where I could be in product management make this much money, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. So, I have them do that early. Ideally, before they apply for a job. And that way, every single job offer they get they are comparing to their standards, not to each other, not to the current job that they have. A lot of times I have people go through this. And I actually asked them to put what their current job gives them in there. I've had people realize, you know what, I don't like this boss, maybe I need to transfer, you know, to another team, but mostly other boxes are checked. And in my way to get off the conveyor belt is to stop working for a guy that's a slave grinder and go work for the good leader. Does that make sense?

Jeff Altman 27:48
Yeah, it does. You know, your version of that list, I do have a slightly different way. You know, what I'm telling you, what I do is I ask them very simply, what's most important to you in the next job organization, need to see or hear or feel to believe is the right choice for you? I want you to make up a list as long as you like, don't edit, just put everything down. Because once you have that list, I'm going to ask you to prioritize it on is on a scale that focused on the first 10 items

Diana Alt 28:25
I like that, that's really cool.

Jeff Altman 28:27
And then from there, I take that one extra step. And I set it up like I did before about good behavior, bad Job Hunters, and good behavior on employers. So, given the fact that you're going to be on good behavior, and so that, what will you need to? I'm looking at them from an NLP standpoint. So, if they're a visual person, what are you going to need to see? or hear or feel to believe it's the right choice for you?

Diana Alt 28:59
Do you ask the negative too, like what are the things you?

Jeff Altman 29:02
It depends on what they say, Yeah, I don't want to guide to the negative. Sometimes if they're struggling, I'll ask them, you know what you don't like. So, let's make that list though. And then once we have the negative, we can flip it to the exact opposite, and know that it's probably somewhere between those two poles.

Diana Alt 29:24
Now, that's really good. And I do actually go through an exercise where I have them write about their job, but then I do have them do that concrete exercise. So, there's a little bit of both. I had not thought of let's prioritize the top 10. I think a lot of it is because it's so clear, I usually don't get once people get on this train. My clients seem like they're pretty clear about what the deal breakers are. And I encourage the shortest list of deal breakers possible. Like you really need to know the difference between a true deal breaker and something that's a little bit off ideal. Since I work with so many people that are in tech or engineering type roles, they get really absolute really fast. And so, I have to kind of, if I sense that they have so many absolutes, that they're not going to be able to actually find anything, then we got it kind of reeling in a little, okay

Jeff Altman 30:17
Let’s prioritize which of the rule absolutes and which are the relay?

Diana Alt 30:21
Are you going to lose your house over that, you know, like, I, if I work for an organization where there's rampant sexism, I will, I will risk having to, like take a roommate, in order to make ends meet, I'm not going to be in that kind of that kind of organization? Because if it's so embedded, that I can see it, that means that it is everywhere. And you know, I, I own my own business, but I wasn't in the C suite when I was in corporate, I was not in a position to actually have power to change a racist culture within or a sexist culture. So, I, that's my line in the sand. I don't I don't do it. I'm not having it. But other people have different lines in the sand. So, but I asked questions like, would you scale back your life to beans and rice and take a roommate? Because of that? And I've never actually had people do that. But it changes the how they think about stuff.

Jeff Altman 31:19
It's a punch in the mouth and makes them pay attention, as opposed to me being on script, which is, I don't want to do this. And they haven't really thought about it for a long time now. But when you say would you lose the house? would you want your kid to drop out of school? Yeah. Would you want to cut the cable bill? Yep, or cut cable and reduce

Diana Alt 31:46
The degree to which you have to the degree to which you have to have these conversations is different for different situations. I actually work with a lot of people that want their tendency is to hop from one conveyor belt to the other. So, I work with a lot of high skilled tech people. It's the kind of people that you hear, or just doesn't, you know, data scientists, you know, analytics engineers and stuff where the problem isn't that 100 people applied for the job, and you were one of 90 that got ghosted. The problem is that the jobs that's open for six months, not because the company's bad, but because there's just not that many people with those senior skill sets. And what happens is, they're so in demand that when they get pissed, and decide to leave, they never do any introspection. So, they go from one crap environment to another crap environment that paid them 12% more. And that's one of the other things that I like to try to prevent. So, if they sit for a minute, and figure out what it is that I want, even if they only find three criteria, instead of just my boss cuts me off last Friday, for the last time, it improves their satisfaction in the next role.

Jeff Altman 33:05
We've got so many, so much more that we could cover, but you know, we've already been on for a little over a half hour. And I don't want to do like a full hour no digests What have I covered yet that we really need to.

Diana Alt 33:21
the thing that we didn't cover yet is leader. So let me cover the leader pillar really quick. So, every single employee engagement or retention related survey I've seen in the last 15 years sites, one of two things is the top reason for people leaving, it's either lack of growth opportunity, or crappy boss. So, and crappy boss takes all different forms. So, when you think about leadership, though, I want someone to think about the relationship with their current boss, which the key things are just the management style mesh with yours are you treated with respect as a human, instead of just a person that produces things. And then, but I also want them to think about the leadership of the organization, because you can work for a great boss and a company that cannot communicate a business strategy to save their life. And if you're working in an organization that doesn't have a clear business strategy that they are willing to share with all employees, you have at least one of two problems potentially both going on. The first is that they don't have a strategy, which happens more than you think even in larger companies. The second is that they don't think the peons need to know they just need to do the work. And both of those things are no Bueno for people that are trying to take your career seriously. So that's the leadership pillar.

Jeff Altman 34:48
And leaders complain about staff relentlessly and sad, but, you know, I serve up with the premise that There's a statistic that says within 18 months of hiring someone, most leaders, most managers have buyer's remorse. So, they regret the fact that they hired.

Diana Alt 35:11
because everybody's on their best

Jeff Altman 35:13
Right? It's part of the Act. So, Job Hunters have an act during the interview, phony, but so do the employers, so everyone is miss hired, job hunters the new employee, have the have the decision regret much earlier.

Diana Alt 35:31
Yes, they know in a week, right. I know, I had a job where I knew the first day and I was still there three years later. Because I thought I could say that I thought I can say that. But a thing that I like people to realize your mind just as much as the employer is. So, you can have you have your buyer's remorse and they have their buyer's remorse. And it goes both ways. One of my favorite tactics is to be you in an interview. So, if I I'm really inquisitive, and I've had, I don't, I don't, if I'm in an interview, I don't miss the offer very often. But occasionally I have and I've had a couple of times where the feedback was, I asked too many questions. It's like, well, I'm basically a four-year-old. You know, my whole thing is to ask why or to try to figure out why. So, if you don't like that an interview, awesome. We've saved ourselves a lot of pain.

Jeff Altman 36:31
And folks if that is their reason for turning it down. Congratulations.

Diana Alt 36:37

Jeff Altman 36:38
You're off the conveyor belt. Yeah. They wanted to hire a sheep.

Diana Alt 36:43
Yes, yes. or they just wanted to hire a doer. Yeah, they want to hire someone that'll shut up and color.

Jeff Altman 36:51
It's a fun way of doing it. I normally talk about the school system, where we learned to shut up do, we tell you to do when we tell you to do it, regurgitate a bunch of facts when we tell you to do it? Or else? again, if you don't go to a good school, you won't get the good job.

Diana Alt 37:10
I won't get into Harvard and have $182,000 worth of student loans. Oh, crap. Yeah.

Jeff Altman 37:17
Yeah. Well, I could go to Stanford and double that.

Diana Alt 37:21
But or I could have said forget it and started a business or going in the Army or whatever. There are so many paths.

Jeff Altman 37:29
So, folks, I'll just simply say, as you evaluate leaders evaluate how they interview. Because if all they're doing is checking boxes, all they want is a commodity. Yes, they're looking for is human being and they're trying to get to know you, as a human being. There's some hope there, not a guarantee. But there's hope there that you can suss out on my favorite phrases, suss it out, to figure out whether this is somebody you might want to work with.

Diana Alt 38:01
Yeah, there's one other thing that was a really good barometer for an interview, one of the people in my Facebook community shared the other day. And it is do I feel like the whole purpose of this interviewer is to make me look like I'm dumber than him or her. So, if during the interview, they're trying to prove how smart they are, and how smart you're not red flag. That's just not cool. Because they're going to do that every day for the rest of your life. Like when you work for them.

Jeff Altman 38:33
This has been fun. Diana, how could people find out more about you? The work you do. Yeah, everything,

Diana Alt 38:39
all the things. So, I have a I have a couple ways. One way is one of my favorite ways to engage with people is in my Facebook community, which is called the career boss crew, because I'm here to make your boss to your career. So, if you go to careerbosscrew.com it'll point you to my Facebook group and you can request to join my website is Diana, Dianaalt.com. And I have some freebie giveaway stuff. Yes, don't you live freebies. I have freebie giveaway stuff at Diana teaches.com. So right now, it's a resume don'ts handbook. And I'm planning to add some stuff later this year, but it's one of my favorites, favorite toys stuff to not do on your resume.

Jeff Altman 39:28
Wonderful, Diana. Thank you, folks. We'll be back soon with more. I'm Jeff Altman of the big game hunter. Hope you enjoy the interview. And if you did, and you're watching on YouTube, click the like button give it a thumbs up do something that lets people know is worthwhile sharing. Come on, you know what to do. In addition, if we're not connected on LinkedIn, send a connection request to me on linkedin.com/in/Thebiggamehnter and mention that just only interviews I like knowing I'm helping some folks and once we are connected trust me, your network is gonna be a lot bigger as my network is bigger than most people's. Yeah. How also mentioned, visit my website, thebiggamehunter.us. The blog has 1000s of posts that you can watch and listen to read that will help you. job hunt, hire more effectively managing lead, resolve workplace related issues. So again, that's thebiggamehunter.us. And at the site, you can schedule time for a free discovery call or schedule time for coaching. I would love to help you, folks have a terrific day and most importantly, be great. Take care


JeffAltman, The Big Game Hunter
JeffAltman, The Big Game Hunter

Jeff Altman, The Big Game Hunter is a coach who worked as a recruiter for what seems like one hundred years. His work involves career coaching, as well as executive job search coaching, job coaching, and interview coaching. He is the host of “No BS Job Search Advice Radio,” the #1 podcast in iTunes for job search with more than 2000 episodes.

Are you interested in 1:1 coaching, interview coaching, advice about networking more effectively, how to negotiate your offer or leadership coaching? Schedule a discovery call at my website, www.TheBigGameHunter.us

Quick question? Get it answered with a 3-5 minute video at https://thebiggamehunter.us/videoanswer. Want to do it live? https://thebiggamehunter.us/live

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