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Hi, this is Jeff Altman, The Big Game Hunter. You’re either watching Job Search TV or listening to this as No BS Job Search Advice Radio. I like to spend some time from time to time to time to time… Okay, I’ll stop with the time thing. And talking with people who are not me about different elements of job search.

And I’ve got a returning guest today, Thea Kelley. Thea is a job search and interview coach based in the Bay Area and serving job seekers nationwide. Her book, the Amazon bestseller, “Get That Job! The Quick and Complete Guide to a Winning Interview” is hailed as “Excellent!” on Forbes.com. For smart job search tips and a free gift, subscribe to Thea’s blog at GreatJobSooner.com. And there’s information about contacting her there for 1-on-1 work. And Thea, how are you today?

I’m doing great, Jeff. How are you?

I’m feeling fabulous, and I see you took the mask off for the interview. How… how lovely!

And I wanted to say I’m excited to be here to talk about this really important topic because I know job search is hard enough in times like these without having to carry around the burden of any false information, any any myths that aren’t true. As opposed to myths that are true.

And we all tell ourselves lies about different things. And job search is one of those areas that, because job seekers don’t know, they repeat the same nonsense over and over again. So, we’re going to do a show today, folks, about BS myths that job hunters tell themselves. And then we’ve got a backup topic behind this one that is fabulous. So, we’re going to start with the myths you tell yourselves that are flat-out false. So, myth number one!

Okay, myth number one: Just because a certain company is having layoffs does not automatically mean there won’t be hiring there soon. Companies do frequently lay off—have a layoff—and then hire people right after that. It happens. Even a hiring freeze is not something that they can not make some exceptions to. They sometimes do. So, don’t write a company off your list just because they’re having layoffs.

And not only that. Sometimes, someone will say that they’re laying off, and it was just them!

That’s true!

Or a department, and they’re hiring in different areas. So, the notion that, “Oh, this firm, nothing’s going on there. They just canned a bunch of people.” Well, they did, and they may still be hiring.

That’s right.

Cool. So, next myth?

Next myth!

Next myth. Next myth is, of course, “Nobody’s hiring.”

Oh, no. Nobody. 40 million people out of work in this country, and nobody’s hiring!

Yeah. So, there is hiring going on. And if you start telling yourself, “There’s no hiring going on,” you’re just shooting yourself in the foot. You’re setting up a cortisol stress reaction in your brain and body, and it’s just simply not true, anyway.

Next!

No, I got… I got to say something about this! Because the fact is, even in… I’ve worked in search for 40-plus years, and every recessionary time, there’d be the voices of doom, and I was filling jobs. And even now as a coach, I’ve helped a number of people get work during the Great Pandemic that has been haunting the economy now for several months. So, you know, firms are hiring and…

Yeah. And let me say, also, I should make a reference to my own clients. I am having people get jobs. Does it take longer? Usually. But people are getting jobs that I personally know. I’m getting emails in my box saying, “I got it!” you know, which…

Fabulous! And they’re just doing it differently. It doesn’t look… It doesn’t look the same.

Right, because they are working with a coach, for one thing.

Tada!

So, another myth—and this is going to sound self-serving, but there’s a myth sometimes that if you’re unemployed, you need to cut back on all expenses and spend no money at all. You need to spend no money except where it’ll help you make money. And so, if you need job search services, I wouldn’t say that’s the place to cut. I would look instead at your cable, your subscriptions, whether you’ve shopped around for better rates at your cell phone provider or your bank, and so on. But think about whether maybe you do need career services.

However, I would also say that you can’t afford to waste money working with somebody who isn’t that good. So, shop around carefully. Make people show you examples of their work. Look at their online presence, and if they aren’t selling themselves in a totally professional, go-getter kind of way online, then what makes you think they know how anybody should market themselves?

And the fact of the matter is, folks, most of you are amateurs around job hunting. You know, even for those of you who’ve hired before, you think you know how firms hire, but you know how you hired. And it can be completely different for others. So, recognize that as an amateur, you can do it by yourself, but it takes longer. And you hit your head against the wall a bunch of times, and unfortunately, run the risk of losing out on an opportunity that you could have gotten if only.

Right. And just ask yourself, if I get a job even one week sooner, how much money is that worth? One week’s pay might be a fairly large amount of money for you. What if you get a job a month sooner or two months sooner?

So, end of that, unless you’ve got more to say, Jeff.

No, we’re good here.

Okay, let me see. Another myth is that… oh, yeah… you shouldn’t bother people at a time like this to talk to you. Like, for instance, you may have heard—if you’re lucky—about the proactive way of getting a job, where you make a list of target companies that you’re interested in. This is well known as a best practice, about 40 or 50 companies. And then, you start leveraging your contacts, or even just making cold emails—which if they’re written right, they do work sometimes—to get people in those companies to talk to you, have a conversation, build some relationship, show an interest in what they do, and keep in touch occasionally afterwards. And if you’re lucky, they’ll give you leads to other people to talk about, or they’ll give you useful inside information that enables you to make a much better approach when there is an opening.

And they know you now, and when an opening comes up or is about to come up, but they haven’t advertised it yet, there’s that greater chance that they’ll reach out, “Oh, I know somebody.” And so, some people think, “Well, in times like these, nobody’s going to want to talk to me.” It’s kind of the other way around, I think, because there is a feeling right now in the air of, you know, we’re all in this together. There’s a goodwill in the air. People know how tough it is, and I think people are often more willing than ever to talk to you if you go about it right.

I agree. And I know no one wants to seem like one of those people. You know, the mooch. The one who says, “Me, me, me, me, me.” But if this is a previous relationship—I’m going to start in that place—a previous relationship where you’re checking in and seeing how people have been doing for the last few months during the pandemic, whether they’re still in their role, and you show genuine care and concern because you worked with them previously, or they’re someone that you’ve known socially for a number of years, you start there.

Yeah, and ask them, “What can I do for you?” You know, that’s a great thing among all the other questions about how is your company doing these days, and what’s new and exciting here, and what does this company need from hires right now, or what is the hiring process like right now, if any? Then, at some point, ask them, “This is great, I really appreciate your time. Is there anything I can do for you?” Any kind of project of yours you’d like me to mention to people or to social media, anybody you’d like to be introduced to?

But above all, there are certain people out there who will help you just because they want to help. Steve Dalton, for instance, who wrote a great book called The 2-Hour Job Search, he calls them “boosters.” You’re going to approach people to talk to, and some of them are what he calls “curmudgeons” or “obligates”—people who think they should be helpful, but they aren’t. But some of them are going to be real boosters, and they’re going to help you out aside from even what they’re going to get out of it. And finding those people is what a state-of-the-art networking campaign is about.

And a resource, by the way… Jeff, thanks for mentioning GreatJobSooner.com, my blog with helpful job search tips. Right now at Great Job Sooner, the second article on the page is all about this thing of how do you get people to talk to you. It’s called “The Best Way to Make Contacts Within Your Target Companies.” And so, I talk a lot about ins and outs of that, little things you wouldn’t have thought of, like, for instance, emailing somebody and asking for an “informational interview” doesn’t work as well as just emailing them and saying, “I was wondering if we could chat sometime because your insights would be valuable.” Because when you say that “interview” word, people think, “Oh no, a desperate job seeker. They should go to HR, I’m not HR, I don’t know anything about jobs.” So, there’s just one little thing of what words to use, and there’s more technique to it. So, check out my blog, or Jeff, maybe you’ve talked about this subject in your interviews before about approaching people?

And with the coaching that I do, the premise that I start with is it’s always about the relationship. And since most people, as we get older and become adults and have other priorities, relationships fall by the wayside. It’s about rekindling old relationships and showing genuine concern. And even if that means having two conversations or three before you get to the, “Can you help me?” question, it’s better to rekindle the relationship because, you know, it’s kind of like if you’re at the old-fashioned networking meetings, and you walk over to someone and go, “Hey, know about any jobs?” “Know about any jobs for me?” Everyone heads for the hills!

“I’m looking for a job!” No, you’re absolutely right. And even if it’s somebody that you didn’t previously know and they’re one of these booster types, still the first thing to do in that meeting is make rapport. Get in rapport with the person, have a nice conversation, because you can always ask further questions later.

And here’s another tip: At the end of any conversation like that, whether you knew the person before or they are somebody who’s new to you, tell them, “Well, thank you very much. These are excellent ideas, and I’m going to check out all these things you mentioned, and I’ll drop you a note in a couple weeks and let you know how it went.”

The great thing about that is that then when you drop them that note in a couple weeks, they’re not looking at it going, “Uh-oh, does that person need even more now? What do they need? I already talked to her.” But instead, they’re going, “Oh, she said she’d drop me a note, and now she did! She follows up.”

And when you drop that note, you can say something like, “Thanks for your tip about reading this, and I did, and here’s what I learned from it, it was great. And you mentioned talking to so-and-so, and I sent them a couple notes, haven’t heard back yet, but I’m optimistic about that, and thanks a lot.” Well, what they might do is write back to you and say, “Oh, you haven’t heard back from so-and-so? Let me drop them a note myself.” So, sometimes people will just even offer additional help because you’re staying in touch.

And the magic trick is to keep letting them know how their help was helpful and how you followed through on it, and then they will tend to want to help you further. If they give you advice and they never hear back on whether you did a thing about it, they’re going to tend to dry up.

They’re going to forget about you. One of the tricks with networking I’ve always found is the contact, and again, not being one of those people who’s calling too often, but the periodic check-in just to let people know what’s going on, checking in with them if there’s anything you can do for them, being the friendly person now that you’ve reconnected again, and not just going another four years before you’re talking to them. You’re asking for favors, you’re looking for help—they deserve to know what they did and whether it helped, whether there’s anything more. And that’s on you to follow up, folks. They’re not going to call you up and say, “Hi, how did it go? Have you been able to reach them?” Doesn’t work that way.

Right, right. People like to know that what they did actually made a difference. I like to know that. You like to know that, Jeff.

So, here’s another myth. This is the myth that in a bad economy like this, you better broaden your job search and be open to far more different types of positions—just kind of take anything. And that’s not really true. It may be that if you’re, say, working in airlines, you might want to think about getting into maybe some aviation-related field other than commercial airlines, like aviation logistics or something. Sure, you have to adjust.

But the “I’ll take anything” job search is usually nowhere near as effective as the targeted, proactive job search like what we’re talking about here, because if you’re willing to take anything, then what are you going to say to people as you’re networking with people? Or what are you going to put on your LinkedIn profile?

“I’ll take anything!”

Yeah! And nobody wants the person who will take anything; they want the person who is ready to do this particular job and is passionate about that particular job. So, you want to continue doing a targeted job search focused either on one job title or a small group of very closely related ones that harmonize together.

The desperate job hunter is as attractive as the desperate dater! Everyone… no one’s interested in the stalker, and no one’s interested in the person that says, “I’ll take anything!”

It is a lot like dating, isn’t it?

That’s the way I’ve always looked at job hunting. It’s like going out on blind dates, and you kind of have to get acquainted with people. It’s the prose of blind dating.

And nobody likes a blind date either who the whole evening is doing nothing but trying to prove themselves and prove how great they are. You know, it’s much better if they can just actually pay attention to the person they’re with, and listen, and relate to them as a human being, and have a nice time.

So, that’s something to think about in your networking: Focus on that other person. Even before you talk to the person, you know, think for a moment, use your imagination, and imagine having a nice conversation with them and you and them being buddies. Because you may not be buddies yet, but you very well may be soon.

So, anyway, so yes, keep your job search targeted.

And the last one…

I’m going to leap in with one thing here. And folks, you know, let’s also recognize that, you know, as we’re recording this in 2020, there are a lot of firms that aren’t really going to come back. And there are a bunch of jobs that may not come back so regularly. So, you may need, not to be desperate, but to be smart and adaptive.

And to start thinking of how your skills and experiences can translate into something else. And as you network with people, you can talk with folks and say, “You know, this is what I’ve been doing up until this point, but from what I understand, this experience really segues very nicely into [fill in the blank], because…” and then you start explaining it to the person that you network with. So that this way, what you’re able to do is not have them figure it out for you. The more they think, the more they start to hesitate, and the less they’re likely to do because they don’t want to get rejected! And they don’t want to introduce you to someone who’s going to make them think like, “Why am I talking to this guy?”

Right. So, do adapt your career if necessary, but adapt it to something specific, and then focus on that.

And if… and if you don’t have the financials to be out for any length of time, all bets are off! You’ve got to get something, we understand that. But you don’t have to get married. What you can do is take something interim and continue to look, because you have a responsibility to yourself and your family to pull in some money, understood.

Yeah, that’s true. That’s true. And actually, that brings me to another myth, which is the idea that things are so bad that you should maybe wait a while and postpone your job search, and just take a good long vacation and heal from the stress of all this. That’s very tempting, I know, because some people have been working for years and decades, long hours, very stressed out. They lose their job, they feel like, “I need some time for me.” I agree with that. However, I would say make it a vacation—a two or three-week vacation—and then do start your job search. Because a job search is not necessarily a 40-hour thing, and you can still take a day off now and then, for sure.

And also, while you’re doing that search, because it may take a while, I would really encourage people to think about doing some freelancing or consulting. Which, as was the case with me after I got laid off from a job in 2008 and became a career coach…

You got laid off?! Didn’t they know what they had with you?!

Oh, I just… what were they doing?! But it was the beginning of that big… that last recession.

Anyway, where was I? I started freelancing, and after a while, I discovered I liked that better than the jobs that I was interviewing for, so I stopped interviewing and kept the job. Also, let’s say that I had kept job searching, but it had taken me six or seven months to find something. It would really be good to have that work in the interim, because: A) I’d be making contacts, so it would be automatic networking just in the course of doing what I was doing. And B) I would possibly be learning some new things that would be useful. C) I’d be getting a feeling of accomplishment, I would not be depressed, I’d be keeping busy. And lastly, my resume would not have this big ugly gap.

And yes, employers are going to be more understanding about resume gaps around this time, but they’re still not going to love it, you know? So, it’s a really good idea to be doing something else. If not some temporary work or freelance or consulting, at least do some volunteering, because again, you’ll be… and there is online and remote volunteering you can do, and it’ll be something where you’ll be meeting people, making connections, maybe building skills.

And the fun thing is, if you’re one of the folks who’s been thinking about doing a career change, this is the ideal time to experiment with doing it on the side and try to make some money and learn some of your lessons while still looking for something full-time. Because from my vantage point, when I coach people, I tell them, “Now, I know you’re interested in doing a career transition, but you’re used to a certain income level and a certain expenses coming with that, and you’re probably not going to get to that number right away. So, let’s experiment with this on the side, and use it as the experiment to see, is it something that I really like? Is this something I could see myself doing however many hours a day, a week, or what have you, while you’re still looking for something full-time that’s going to pay the bills?”

It’s going to make the full-time thing more palatable because you’ve got the passion thing right behind it that you can be growing. So, to me, it’s always an ideal time to start that thing on the side that allows you to feel fulfilled while you’re looking for something else that’s going to bring in some cash.

Yeah, and it’s a little insurance policy because then if you do lose your job, you haven’t lost your whole income. You had this other income stream that goes on.

Yeah.

So, some good news for a second! Or imagine… good news!

Okay, so at some point, you very likely are going to get a job offer. There is a myth out there that if you get a job offer and it’s during a recession, you better just take it and not try to negotiate anything. “Nobody’s going to want to negotiate during a recession.” This is not true. Employers can, and do, and will sweeten a deal even during a recession.

Yeah, you have to try. And not trying basically means you’ve accepted the notion that an employer is giving you two choices. The two choices being “leave it” and “take it.”

Yeah, yeah.

And what you can do is to try and goose it a little bit, and just appear uncomfortable with the number that you hear. This is one of my favorite techniques. So, “Hey, we’re making you an offer!” “That’s fabulous!” And then they state the number and it’s less than what you’re looking for, and instead of sounding exuberant, they hear: “Huh.”

Yeah!

And the silence signals them. They get it right away!

Yeah, that’s called “the executive flinch!” It’s a good one, it is a good one.

And also, don’t think in terms of just negotiating salary. It can be real helpful to have a handful of three or four or five things that you want to negotiate for, because then if they can’t give you what you want in one area, they may very well try to make it up to you by giving what you want in another area.

Do you tend to start with the salary under those conditions, or do you start on the secondary things first?

Well, I’ve always had the feeling it’s better to start with salary because that’s what you… if that’s what you want most. What do you think, Jeff?

At times, you know, I like to give them something they can say yes to easily, because it makes them feel good and starts to build the momentum. Then I go to a tough one, and then I go to the number. Then I go to the salary. It depends upon… again, I did this in search, so it really depends upon what I knew about the client, what I knew about the organization, and how to play with the scenario to draw it out.

Can you give us an example? I’m sorry, an example of a small thing you might start with?

Sure. It might be something as simple as, “You know, I have a vacation scheduled, I’ve paid for the air, the tickets, and I’m going to be away for two weeks.” This is an easy one for them to go, “Hey, sure, no problem, you’ll get paid for it,” or, “Yeah, we have a way of working with that, and we can get some money to you during that time.” Great!

And then one that they can say no to right away: “Could you give me four weeks vacation instead of two?” “No!” Okay!

And then you can circle back to the number. Especially once you’ve given them what you call “the executive flinch,” they’re waiting for that one.

Right. And then some other things that I’ve helped people negotiate for would be things like how much… well, like whether the job will remain remote, at least to a large extent, even after things open up again, because some people want to work from home. Or it might even be the job title, or even something about the job description. You never know, these things can be adjustable, especially in a role that’s just been created. It could still be evolving.

Another thing is if you aren’t getting the salary that you would like, you could negotiate about when that will come up for a raise, because a lot of companies tend to reconsider the salary a year from now, but you might ask that that be reconsidered a half a year from now.

And another thing, and kind of one of the last things I think that you should kind of hold till the end, is the possibility of a signing bonus.

So, think about it, which of these things that make the most sense for you. The worst that can happen, as long as you are very positive and upbeat—don’t give ultimatums, be appreciative, and be very clear about communications and next steps—always after any negotiation conversation, confirm afterwards in email what was agreed to as far as who’s going to check with the CEO and ask a certain question, or when somebody’s going to hear back from somebody else.

As long as you’re very clear like that, and very positive, there’s very little risk that they’re going to rescind the offer. It would be very unprofessional for them to do so. After all, all you’ve demonstrated is that you’re assertive, and that you’re confident, and that you believe you’re worth a lot. So, it’s worth doing, and it demonstrates skills that are valuable on the job. People like employees who are assertive and who are willing to speak up, and who are confident. Yeah.

And the two parts that I always follow up with on that are: And if they were to start getting annoyed at this, number one is, there’s a message in that.

Oh, yeah.

So, that’s number one. Number two is the rebuttals to that is, once you see the annoyance, is to say, “Hey, look, you know I got to try! Because, you know, you’re bringing me on board, and part of my role is to… and, you know, if I’m the nice guy and just, you know, caves to everything right away, that’s got to give you some reluctance about putting me into situations.” And that just deflects the entire thing. So, no sweat whatsoever, you just have to be prepared for how to respond to these things.

Yes, be prepared for whatever answer you might hear, and be ready to say, “I understand where you’re coming from. Well, okay, you know, I see what it is. Maybe we can talk about this again a year from now.”

Now, I know that there’s one topic that a lot of people are really concerned about. And it comes under the guise of “last one in, first one out,” or “Gee, if I start a new job, am I going to be in a situation where like on my first day, they’re going to bring me into the conference room and say, ‘Gee, we’re really sorry, but we don’t really need you anymore.'” So, what kind of things can someone ask about in order to explore what they’re stepping into? Are there minefields there that they need to be concerned about in going into the new role?

Yeah. So, in your interviews, you should and have a right to, and are perfectly reasonable to ask questions around the job security of the role and the firm’s strategy for success during the recession, things like that. You want to pick the right time. You should ask these questions toward the end of the interview process, not first thing in the door, because before that, you have to be abundantly demonstrating that you are the right person for the job.

But once it gets to the question asking and answering part toward the end of things, yeah, “What’s the company’s strategy for success during this recession?” And you’ll notice I asked that with a smile on my face.

And the smile makes a big difference! Because it takes away a lot of the stress for the person hearing it. It doesn’t seem as threatening. And I always think from the standpoint of, sometimes—you know, it depends on the level of person I’m coaching—sometimes the person is too junior who’s being interviewed to really get a good answer, because the person who’s interviewing them doesn’t know any better than they do! Anything they say is going to translate into, “Oh, we got a great plan! Everything’s fine around here! It’s all good!” So, you got to take the answer with a grain of salt, depending upon your seniority. Now, very senior people, obviously, you’re getting a better answer.

Yeah, and that’s a good point, because you may have an interview first with a recruiter, and maybe then with a hiring manager, and who knows, then with a C-level person, or maybe with some teammates. So, pick the right person to ask these questions, which would probably be the hiring manager to a large extent.

So, here’s another good question you could ask: “How is the company planning for long-term changes that may occur in this industry over the next year, three years, five years?” Perfectly reasonable question. That’d be a good question to ask the CEO, because he’s thinking, or she’s thinking, at the industry level.

Right. And for all these folks, the most senior person that you’re talking to, they have a better perspective on this. And you can say, “It’s obvious everything is changing. You know, the world is changing right now, and what was up in January… you know, the blender has been turned on and we’re all in a different kind of mode. So, what kind of plans or what sort of things are you seeing ahead for the organization, and how are they meeting the challenges of these changing times?”

And then see if the answers you’re receiving make sense to you. If the answer sounds like there’s no transparency there, and they’re not saying what they’re thinking, that should give you pause. Or if the answer doesn’t make sense, yeah, then that should give you pause.

And you can also research it on your own afterwards to see what’s publicly available!

And beforehand. Absolutely.

And thus, you can see if there’s a conflict between what you’re being told and what you’re reading online. And thus, you can say to yourself, “Okay, it’s one of two things: no transparency, or this is an imbecile I can’t really pay attention to.” And either of them is valid, it’s just information.

Right, right. So, another question that you could ask the hiring manager is about their department. You might ask them, “What does upper management see as the importance of this department? And what’s its role, and what is your plan as a manager of this department to keep this department strong and keep the headcount up? What’s your strategy for maintaining that status within the company?”

It’s interesting, the idea of status within an organization.

Yeah, maybe that might be a sort of off-putting term to say, I was winging it a little there.

That’s what you’re asking about.

Yeah, I’m going to use the term “rep”—reputation.

Yeah.

And no one’s going to say, “Oh, we’re thought of as being the worst dregs in the organization.” No one ever says that, but you’ll notice certain things in the behavior of the interviewer that are going to signal things to you, going, “You know, I’m not… you know, okay…” and they start to fumble around a little bit to disguise the problems that the organization has. And the ideal answer is to say, “Hey, look, we’re not perfect. There are some people I know I’ve done a lot of great work for, and there are others within the organization, I know they are not big fans of mine.” I love the honesty, wouldn’t you?

Yeah. And you may also hear, and this would be a really good sign, a detailed strategy. Right before I got laid off, my manager then… I was in the training department of a corporation, and I could see that my manager was already thinking ahead about how are we going to make sure that the trainers aren’t let off, because that is often the first people who are left to go. And his approach was integrate them with the workers, have them starting to help the workers right out there on the floor, so that the company doesn’t think of this department as people that you send people into a classroom to have somebody yak at them. And that was a really good strategy, and he mostly managed to keep his headcount, but I had been the most recent one added. So as you said, last one added, first one to go.

So, speaking of headcounts, you might ask something like, “It’s really hard to get funding, I bet, to hire somebody new these days. So, I’m wondering, what is the need that’s driving this hire? What makes this hire too important to put off?”

Oh, great question!

Yeah, that’ll tell you something about what the person coming into that role needs to be sure and do, what they need to be sure and focus on and address in order to continue to be seen as relevant.

Yeah, I like that question about what the funding is like. And you might just simply talk about—and again, depends on time of the year—as you start to enter a budget cycle, “How does budget look for next year? Do you have a sense of what you’ve put in for, how headcount is going to change, what projects are getting approved? You’ve got to have a sense, you’re not just throwing stuff up there! You have a sense from your conversations with your management about what they think they can get through in the budget. What’s it going to look like?” Because that’s going to give you perspective on how the group is seen and whether there’s an upside for you.

That’s right. And even if it’s, let’s say it’s a new role, a good question would be, “Oh, when was the decision made to create this new role and hire somebody for this?” And if you hear that the decision was made just recently, I would say that’s a good sign. If it’s more like the decision was made three months ago and we’re just barely hanging onto it by our fingernails, that is a little more of a worrisome sign.

Now, let’s say you do hear a worrisome sign or a red flag during the interview. Be prepared to not make any decisions on the spot. Never make decisions on the spot in an interview. Keep going, keep asking other questions, because when you get home later and you think about it some more, or you maybe go to the next interview if you get a call back for the next stage, you may learn things that may overcome the worries that came up from one of these questions.

But meanwhile, you’ve gathered some information. And as soon as you get out of the interview, sit down someplace privately, like whether it’s in your car or on the train or whatever, and get out a notepad or whatever and write down everything you can remember about the interview: what they asked you, what you asked them, what their answers were, the look on their face, some chit-chat that happened. Because all of that can be really useful later, not only as you consider whether you want the job, but also even in your follow-up correspondence or what happens in the next interview and so on. A lot of that can disappear from your mind.

Very quickly. And I’ll just say that post-interview self-debrief is really helpful for going into the next interview. Because what it does is it may signal some areas of interest that they have that aren’t obvious in the job description, that will allow you to dig in a little bit deeper. Also, with that notion of red flags that show up in the interview, I’m a believer in seeking clarification, not looking for immediate rejection, because you may just be talking to someone who doesn’t know how to explain it very well. One of the things we’re dealing with are human beings, and I’m sure your experience with interviewing is like mine: A lot of the interviewers are not particularly skillful.

Oh, absolutely. Yeah. And some of the classic interview questions to ask at the end of an interview still hold very well for this purpose, things like asking, “What are the top priorities for the next six months for the person in this role?” or “the top priorities for the next year?” Because once you hear what those are, you know that you really need to be focusing on those, not only in the rest of the interviews so that you get the job, but also when you get on the job, to make sure that you’re hitting those hot-button issues for them and really making yourself relevant and valuable.

So, we’re talking, folks, about the questions to ask to avoid stepping into a minefield, so that you can unearth things along the way that are going to head off problems when you first come on board.

Right, to avoid landing on a sinking island.

Yeah! Yeah! Is there anything else people can be asking to kind of flush up some of these red flags that come to mind?

An obvious one would be, “Has the current situation created any special challenges for the person coming into this role?” So by current situation, I mean pandemic or the recession, anything else that is going on. Is it creating special challenges for that person? And again, as with all these questions, you want to try and research that on your own first before you’re asking it. That doesn’t mean you’re not necessarily still going to ask it, but if you’ve researched it already, you could say, “You know, I’m getting the impression that the recession is making jobs extra difficult for people who do X. Is that true here as well, and can you tell me a little bit about that?”

But again, you know, be sure and ask this with a smile, or “extra challenging” would be another thing to say instead of “difficult,” because overall, you’re wanting to keep a positive tone, and you’re wanting to show them that you’re a roll-up-the-sleeves and handle-these-challenges kind of person.

I heard you use the R-word! “Recession.” No one has used that word! Oh, Thea, how wild of you!

Have we not mentioned it yet in this segment? Well, we’ve been talking about it all along, folks! We’ve been really thinking about this all along, because that is why you might step onto that job and find that it’s not an island you’ve stepped onto, but a giant shark that’s now about to go underwater.

And you know, another really obvious question that’s worth asking is simply, “Can you tell me about the job security in this role?” See what they have to say.

Because you never know what leaks out. Now, to me, the honest answer is to say, “Who knows? You do a great job, we’ll look out for you. You do a bad job, adios, muchachos.” And that’s an honest answer, without the Spanish in there! But fundamentally, with the clients that I used to serve when I did search, invariably they said that about the job, about the bonuses, about the value of the options, the whole kit and caboodle. And now in particular, the truth is a good signal to hear.

Yeah. So listen between the lines, but don’t let that cause you to take an adversarial relationship toward the person you’re talking to. You have to remember that they are under pressures from various directions, and also that they are probably perfectly decent human beings who you at some point will have a really nice working relationship with. Think that in advance, go into the interview feeling like, “Here’s my future great colleague.” But at the same time, sure, think between the lines about what are they not allowed to say to you. It’s not that they don’t want to say it necessarily, but they’re not allowed to. So, yeah.

Yeah, the fun version of that is: Page 42 of the Manager’s Handbook at this firm basically says I’m not allowed to discuss this! And I’m giving a flippant answer, but again, don’t hold it against people.

Right, because we’re all under a lot of challenges right now.

Absolutely true. So, what else could they ask, or have we hit the major points here?

I think we’ve hit the major points. Anything else coming to you, Jeff?

No, you’ve been doing a great job, Thea. I really appreciate it. And folks, I got to tell you, how can people find out more about you, your work? I know I mentioned some things at the beginning. You can say it again, it’s okay.

Yeah, so I have a job search tips blog for job seekers like you folks. It’s called GreatJobSooner.com. And if you go there, you can subscribe, and once a week only, you will get an email telling you what the latest article is. You won’t get a lot of other hoo-ha. Well, I take it back, you’ll get a couple little messages offering you like some useful links, or saying welcome to my blog, things like that. And anyway, when you subscribe to GreatJobSooner.com, you can get some free gifts—tools that will help you get interviews, succeed in your interviews, and negotiate a favorable compensation package. So, enjoy!

Thank you. Thea, this has been terrific.

And folks, we’ll be back soon with someone else and more. I’m Jeff Altman, The Big Game Hunter. If you happen to be interested in one-on-one coaching, at my website, which is TheBigGameHunter.us, you can schedule time for a free discovery call or schedule time for coaching, which I’m obviously going to charge for, and I’d love to help you.

And if you’re watching on YouTube, subscribe to my channel here by clicking the small icon in the lower right or the picture of me in the upper left, and get notified whenever I release something new. Hope you have a great day, and you know what? Be great! Take care!