Half the country believes that jobs in manufacturing are little more than men sitting around swilling beer all day, going home, and going bowling. They believe that the work involves no intelligence and has no future.
My guest, Jim Rink, talks about what modern manufacturing is really like . . . And it does have a future.
Why The Heck Would Someone Want a Career in Manufacturing? | JobSearchTV.com
So, my guest today is Jim Rink, an ex-manufacturing professional who spent his career in various senior leadership roles with fortune 50 organizations particularly a fortune 50 heavy equipment manufacturer. In the second half of his career, he's focused on helping organizations executed higher levels of performance while ensuring the individual team members are fully engaged and committed to the organization's success because we know so many people are not really engaged at work. Jim, how are you? Welcome.
Wow, Jeff, you are a ball of fire. So, thank you for inviting me on today.
You're very welcome. So, let me just start with the obvious question for half the people in the United States. Why the heck would someone want to go into a job in manufacturing. Why aren't these a bunch of people who sit around the trailer park and drink beer all night and if they get dirty during the day. It's kind of like working in the mines. Is that really what it's like?
Some places, I'm sure there's still like that, Jeff. But where somebody lives, I don't know. But I will tell you that the US economy is still. People don't know this. It's still. I've actually got some stats over here. It's about 11.4% of the total gross product, the United States is still in manufacturing. So, it's a $2.3 trillion annual industry and it's a lot more high tech than you think it is and I think it's a place, I spent 30 years of my life and I miss it every day.
Interesting. So, when you say high tech, what form does the tech take?
See, tech can be everything from advanced computers machine tools today, again, when maybe somebody took shop class in the 80s. They did a little engine lathe, and they dial the thing in. Today, those machine tools are adjusting themselves for temperature. They adjust themselves for humidity. The factory today, the air conditioning unit is talking to the machine tools and machine tool gets added, it'll adjust the air conditioning in the facility open close Vance. Probably one of the biggest challenges for manufacturers is talent and it's not just bodies. It's people with the ability to learn and ability to take out new things.
And thus, the definition of talent that they're looking for and I know it's very wide because one place can look for something different than another place. But if you were to generalize what your definition of talent is, why would you do it?
Okay, so it's a person's like you, let's say maybe 30 years ago, 40 years ago, number one trait was probably good attendance. That's I think a lot of people see.
They didn't steal anything.
Well, yeah, they only stole a little bit. But I think was attendance would have been a really key factor. People got promoted because they were present. Today it's computer skills, it's the ability to learn. It's abilities to critical thinking, dependability is still in there. Because the coolest thing about manufacturing is it's a team environment. The thing I missed the most is the sense of camaraderie. I was not a military person. But when you talk to people about what they miss from the military, they miss being part of a unit, they miss being part of a team. I miss being part of my community and being involved with people daily. So, enthusiasm, good attitude but really an ability to learn.
And what sort of things are people asked to learn?
Well, a lot of machine tools are complex. You joke about or not joke but we'll talk about like, I'm an Air Force pilot or a marine pilot is flying billion-dollar aircraft, machine tools. Machines tools set up could be four or $5 million in a small setup. Big process line and a chemical plant might be hundreds of millions of dollars. So, you don't like turning people loose who are just winging it. You don't want just button pushers. You want people that really have a sense of understanding what's going on and then just aren't kind of winging it as they go. It takes a lot of deep understanding around machine tools today.
So, when I think about an org structure within a plant, there are people who do stuff. There are people who manage people who do stuff and there are people who lead everyone else and think about the best way things are done. I know that's a great simplification, but it seems to work in most organizations. I'd be surprised if manufacturer were much different. So, what I think in terms of people who do stuff in the typical plant, what sort of stuff do they tend to do on a daily basis?
Again, if you look at a model that's often used in like, they call it operational excellence, lean manufacturing, operational excellence is the person on the shop floor is the center of the surgery. We tried to design the entire work environment in a one-meter space around the operator and to keep them, so that they don't go, have a wander around and find stuff. Again, when I was a young employee and you'd spend some time in the shop, you'd be like, "oh, yeah, I'm missing this tool: I have to wonder. I have to go over here and find stuff. So, the first goal is kept everything in meter around them. Literally in arm's reach and then they are running in a cross training is huge because people are going to get bored out of their mind if they do the same thing every day. But you could be making a boat. You could be making an engine for a boat. You could be making an electric drive which is kind of cool. You can be making trucks, RVs, thinking all the things that you use every day. Somebody put that together. We don't have little girl formula, but you sprinkle water on it, an RV grows. There's people doing, cabinet work and it's cool to see things that you touch become things.
And so, what I'm hearing you say is the people who do stuff operate within a one-meter space. In other words, not much bigger than the size of a cubicle folks.
I'm more active actually.
I'm more active, cubicles, achillea, actually.
Yeah. Versus in a plant, you're able to move a little bit and you do stuff. So, your arms of emotion versus your typing away and then there's variety potentially in the work that they do. It may not be every day that they switch to something else. But they switch with some regularity. Am I feeling that correctly?
Once again, I always want to be careful because again, I'm looking at my stats. There are like 250,000 manufacturers in the US. Lot more small. But in general, you try to keep your folks happy, and you try to rotate them around. Because if you're the only person that knows something the day, you're home sick or you take a day off, the entire factory stops running is not a very bright move. So, you are prostrating people but again, I see that carefully because some people absolutely love, doing that Cynthia stability. Factory folks, people like me are going to try to drive people to cross train. It isn't the other way around. A lot of people think you just want to have me make one widget all day long. I really want people to learn a lot of things. Because the thing is, if you work the process up ahead of you and it'll be down below you, when I do something, how does it impact the rest of the team and if you're all by yourself, you just an isolation. So, you're correct. We try to cross train, bring some variety and it's also exciting by the way is that try new things, try different things.
Agreed and thus, when you were hiring, when you were in manufacturing, how did you evaluate people to bring them on board. Was it skills based like; how did you evaluate the talent in order to see whether you'd want to hire them?
Well, they're a big company. Big companies, there's the screening interviews. So, they're background checking in there. They're checking for some basic aptitudes, math, not terrible amount of math but their aptitude tests, you got to get through a drug screen and you'd be amazed how many folks don't make it through those screens. Once you get them through the screening, it�s really an issue of I just love good attitude and you think about it, there's very few folks that if you really are open minded in there's challenges, you know, right now, you read in the newspaper where people are talking about, "hey, there's not enough workers and we need to do things". There weren't a lot of workers in 2017, 2018, 2019. We had challenges on available people, available jobs was pretty close. It was like a one for one ratio. You didn't have four people lining up on a job. So, you look for good attitude and then you just have to assume you're going to train people; you're not going to find people like fall off like a piece of food off a tree that knows how to run a million-dollar machine tool.
It's funny when you talk about attitude. I was listening to a podcast interview with the guy who started one 800 junks and he was a college student and he saw a guy when he was in McDonald's in Canada who had a sign on the side of his truck about how we hold stuff away and out of that he had an idea for a business. So, he himself bought a truck for $734, he says and as he started to grow the business, he had five trucks and 11 people and then realized he didn't like the attitude of the people that were working for and came to the decision, he needed to replace all of them and he's built his business. There's a lot of variables that go into this, obviously. But part of this is finding happy people, finding people with an attitude where they seem engaged in what they're doing and you and I both know how limited employee engagement is in the United States these days. Despite all the information we have about how to have an engaged workforce. It's very limited. So, I'm sorry, it looked like I was interrupting you on a thought there.
You're just fun. But it's reciprocated. It works back and forth. Because your attitude, if we're working together, the team attitude impacts you. The senior leadership impacts you, so we feed off each other. So, if you get a positive vibe going. You want to keep it God. So, I want to be careful just because somebody is cheerful. It's how do you engage them. It's not just about kind of blindly be unhappy. It's how do you time to a bigger purpose. Because if you don't want it to be just a job, you want people to actually understand what they do is important and how it all ties together. Have you read a book by a guy named Pat Lencioni? It's been renamed a couple times but at one time it's called "the three fables of a miserable job".
No, I haven't read that one.
Like anyone. The three things people need for a job to be pretty cool is, it's got to be measurable. He does some opposite. It's like," hey, it's miserable because it's immeasurable. It's insignificant and irrelevant". But I'll have somebody come in and they say, I just hate what I'm doing or hate who I'm working for and I say, okay, "hey, let's do a little triangle which of the three is out of balance. Can you measure what you do�? I worked at a zoo for high school in college. I worked at the Milwaukee Zoo. Taking admission tickets. We measured; you knew how many cards you did.
How much money you took in on your tail? And you knew if somebody was slack and because we just measured it, waitresses, people through to like drive through. So, measure how many times, they can make somebody smile. You make things up, if you don't have things to measure, relevance and significance. Does my boss actually know who I am. I had a young guy used to work for me. This guy and I was talking to the guys who work for him and they're like, "he calls us dude". I said, "why do you think he calls you dude", he's like because he doesn't know our names.
And I'm like, so I quiz him. I was like, "hey, the guy who's in the first station. What's the guy's name. Go ahead, dude is, you tell him like, what was his name and then significance is, picture if I paid you to sort like paper clips and you put it in a box at the end of the day and then I took that box and I paid like $1, paperclip, presorting made amazing my money. They took that thing and just dumped it back in the band. It kill you; you wouldn't do it. It's crazy. You would take that money and go do something else. You'd scroll the money away as soon as you can run away, you'd go away. So, make it measurable, make it significant and make it relevant.
If a person is trying to find a job in manufacturing, like they're not in the field whatsoever, maybe they're that student who's coming out of school now, who is not cut out for the office and they've decided manufacturing might be a thing that they should try. What do they need to know coming in and do you have recommendations for how they might find the job in manufacturing?
Well, a couple places to start. One is. These have different names in different parts of the country. You can talk Community College, vocational college, trade school, some basic skill because the only thing, so that's one place, right is, get some feel for it. Hey, you know, I'd like to, maybe I take a machining class and usually those the trade school vote tax and things are pretty affordable, and you get a good sense of it. That's a path. The other one is most communities having some form of Workforce Center. You know, it's usually a joint venture between the Department of Labor, local community and local community in the Department of Labor and the community colleges. I stop in there and I just find out. "Hey, who's interviewing for jobs, who's got jobs out there, who's looking for people and who's good to work for". Because again, 250,000 manufacturers, not all of us are angels, not all of us are equally good.
And I just asked around, I think the talent needs are so high that people are going to take a shot at somebody who's energetic, who shows up. Seems fairly diligent and there's a lot of people and colleges and for them, it's not what they're wired to be in. But I just say, you can go but I say the workforce is usually aggregate jobs and if they like you and again, the normal little bit, they'll kind of refer you over, "hey, so and so is hiring, so and so need some people they're looking for good talent. They're taking entry level people" and then I door knock, I do the virtual door knocking, which is apply online, job fair online. Northern Wisconsin, a lot of companies are starting programs. There's a program called, that's all one word, movetomanufacturing.com because they're trying to attract people to try out some of the virtual stuff and then work their way into some training and then you can work through the virtual training, they'll pay 500 bucks to take a job, take an interview.
I know in my area and western North Carolina, there are manufacturers who signed off by having high school students do internships with them and they send vehicles out to pick them up after school and they're paying them and they're training them and they're trying to see the reliability for meeting the van that's picking them up. They're trying to observe their behavior while they're read and at the end of their senior year, they're offering jobs and above minimum wage levels because they've already trained in how they operate and they have a sense of, how they work.
I've seen everything. I've worked the food chain only to middle school. I mean, I would send people out to do Junior Achievement. You know, if you work for me as a supervisor, even team lead, you're like, "hey, I'd like to do Junior Achievement, I'd be like, you go for it. Hey, do you want to do a class talk". You know, "hey, let's bring the kids through into her". Now in our factories, you have to be 18 years old to work in the shop, you could be a high schooler and you can do data entry. You could do some programming troubleshooting. It seems crazy, like a 16-year-old is doing test parameter analysis. That's cool. You cannot work on our shop floors in Malawi and before you turn 18. But again, I'd worked the food chain all the way up to.
We do a lot of open houses, a lot of times we'll do like family day is the drop people and we do employee referrals. I love them. I employ somebody get because I just want to get them in the door and again, there's nothing better. You know, actually, when I was a consultant, what I'll do is I'll tour or something, they said we can't give you people, if you do an employee referral and I'm like, yeah, that doesn't work and I'm like, well, maybe that's an indication of the problem you have is because you're going to pay a lot of money for advertising, but your own employees don't recommend you. Maybe that's a starting place is, what do you need to do to win the ones you already have over.
And once I'm wondering whether the easy way to get in is just getting referral from someone who works at a facility.
I started, it is not hard to get your foot, you won't get somebody to talk to you if you know, somebody is like works at a, say, a Winnebago RV or Brunswick boat factory and you know, your neighbor fairly well saying, "hey, buddy, I love a referral. Can I reach out to the HR people, and I'll say, hey, reach out online and then they in the spot, could you just put me as a referral"? Sure.
Knowing something on the way about what the job is, now we've spoken about ways to get training and tech schools, vocational tech folks, community colleges, some version of a school or a training program that might be available locally and what are they getting trained in many of these programs?
Depends on what you do. You know, some depends how you're wired and so, some of it could be electronic troubleshooting like maintenance. Your thing people say, well, you know, all this stuff is going to automate. I was at a point not too long back and they were like, we just want to buy a robot. I'm like, what are you going to do with the robot. Well, we can't get people and I'm like, well, if you think the robot is, they're not service free, you've got to program them. You got to service them, you got to keep them running. Yeah, you might replace a few people on the shop floor, but you need to think through how you are going to keep the thing running. So, again, training programs, robot tax, technology controllers. You think all the electronics inside a machine tool in a processing piece of equipment. There's tremendous opportunity for people who love electronics, who love programming. So, you can start there. Some people love the weld again. If I and my son, either none of my three kids like the weld, if they like to weld you can make a lot of money as a welder right off the bat.
What's a gob of money for welders?
Well, there's you could start easily 25, 30 bucks and I don't work as a welder and the other thing is, we had an aptitude for it was just like, "hey, I took a class in college or college I took a class in high school. I went like when nights I took a night class and welding. They're hard to come by. But again, a part of it is people associated with, it's different. It's a different stuff. You do wear a helmet; you do a deal. You know, we talk chasing the light ball. Because when you get the black glass, you're seeing the light, you're kind of chased the light. It's a different style but some people just love it and a lot of farm kids, again, that's why you find a lot of factories grew up around farms because offseason. Sometimes manufacturing be a little cyclical, farm kid is just great and I mean for our kids, girl, or boy, they just like to work and a lot of them learned how to weld on the farm.
Now you mentioned the job called Robot Tech or Robo Tech. What did they do? I need to know.
Programmer robot because you think about it's like, "hey, I got this thing that's, I got a robot and picks up a part, he puts the part over there. It puts in a lien holder with mega like an engineering job, a screw in lightbulbs with a robot. They don't come out of the box, knowing how to do that. So, somebody has to teach a robot, how to do it. Now that can be done offline, through off what's called offline programming, which is I created a virtual, like my office, I created a virtual office with a virtual light fixture with a virtual light bulb and I got a virtual robot and that I program it there then I take it to the shop floor, and I rerun the program. You can also do, what's called the teach pendant It looks just like a joystick and a little Pro, like a calculator cross with a joystick and I can program a robot using the joystick in the thing, but somebody's got to teach them how to do so. That's one former robot technician. The other one is somebody got a service little buyer because over time, like, as we get older, our joints get a little bit out of kilter.
Never happened to me.
We're not quite as flexible as we used to be. We need a little bit of work. So, we have to keep those things running correctly and there's a lot of variety in the factory, again, think about it, like when we as consumers go to someplace, we like, we don't want just the Henry Ford joke about the black car. I want different colors. I want different styling. I want different stuff. Robots have to procreate. If you're programming robots in the service of you, they have to go through a lot of different variation to be able to do their job and it's not going to displace all the people in the world. There's lots of jobs going to happen because of automation.
It's funny when I think about that description as you gave it. I tend to think of that as being something with the vendor who's selling that service because it's got to be put in the manufacturing plant and they can say, no, we do some basic work here to set up and then after that, buy, unless you buy a service contract in some way and what I'm hearing you say, "that isn't the case", I'm hearing you say, "there's someone on the machine forums doing".
There's combinations. It depends on, if for any reason, if I'm a really small shop, I may pay the service counter. I may pay somebody, "hey, would you come back around and things like that but in general bigger shop, I'm going to buy it automation system, I'm going to buy so many hours of transition to production. But then I also bought X amount of training because I want to be self. I don't want to have a facility where okay, my robot just decided to stop running. I bought them from somebody and like you're in the western Carolinas, maybe my supplier was in Georgia. Okay, now I've got to wait for them to drive from Atlanta.
Once I get a hold of them, I actually need service now. So, having the ability to control my own destiny is good. But again, that's another place where people when you talk about having jobs in manufacturing, people who design automation systems, it's a pretty good gig. You're designing crazy stuff, things that live rocket nozzles and machining rocket nozzles because anything like SpaceX and all those things, those are all those components, somebody is making those things and a lot of them are handled by robots and just random because they're so big. So, he's going to turn them, flip them and so, he's programmed and designed those systems which is really cool.
Should those people make range obviously?
We're talking automation. Automation technician could be 50 to 75 bucks an hour. I mean, they're doing fine and you can't find them. I mean, they're hard to come by. Again, I just chatted with somebody who was again looking for somebody, kind of come on their team because they need it and they have a large team, but they wanted more technicians. People who are proficient in automation technician. He's in a sense, your mechanic because you know, how to the mechanical stuff runs, you got a little bit of plumbing in because a lot of them are hydraulic. Their hydraulic fluid moving the moving the parts around and you're an electrician and you're kind of paying for all three, electrohydraulic, electrical technician.
Interesting and this once someone's in one of these jobs, how do they progress professionally?
Well, it depends and I don't want to keep giving you the answer. But it matters how they're wired. Some become, you know, say I come in and I'm a part of a team. So, I might be part of a unit of five, maybe that's five, six of us on a given team. Listen, I might become a team lead. Because the technology keeps changing enough. It's like a schoolteacher, I might stay, I might teach third grade math one year. I'm a fourth-grade math.
And next year, I'm at Social Studies one year. So, some technicians just love. They make good money and they stay in the technology realm, they just move around between different types of things they want to master, and they want to pick up. Other folks like the lead thing, they might be lead. They like having the responsibility of coordinating other people. A lot of technical people like to have the lead. Like technician pay folks is a perfectionist tendency that makes them hard to be supervisors. Because they just want to do everything.
And then from there, you could go maybe sales lead, some people are pre implementation leads. They're kind of go into doing a customer, they're doing evaluation. They're doing design work, they come back work with the team. Some people are post implementation support where you talk about, "hey, I've got to get the thing up and running. I like to be on the road. I'll hang out at a job site for three months while they come up in the production and then I'll move to another site that it's all different type of temperaments and personalities. But really some exciting kind of stuff going on.
What kind of exciting stuff is going on?
Well, I mean, look at electric cars, oh my gosh. Like, electrification of everything. You've got people doing private, private, private rocket companies, Buddha thought of like SpaceX 10 years ago. You've got Bezos with his own kind of thing about to go off into space for 11 minutes. Somebody is building all that stuff. You look at look at just you know, what we hear people talk about, like the industry for Dotto, the Internet of Things. The amount of computer firepower showing up just in your own phone, right, you know, think of all the things your phone can do. factories are you know; are those is that technology on steroids. So, you've got the ability to machine things you never thought before now you get into like additive manufacturing, right, which is, you say when additive manufacturing 3d printing, right? I can, I can now create stuff that I never imagined. Because I used to have to remove material additive means I build it upwards, I print it and I can do stuff. Now. Like I said, a nozzle on a rocket is 3d printed, a lot of them are printed in titanium and then machine, there is unlimited the things you can create these days.
So, our own healing is 3d printing is one of those things like I've been looking at 3d printing a house behind mine, because I've got the land for it.
Well, if you if you kind of Google the NASA challenge, and one of the NASA challenges that some of the companies have been taken out is 3d printing, like housing for Mars, where you literally can land your hand the craft, its manufactures its own concrete on site and they 3D you know, is essentially like a fire hose and they 3d print the enclosures.
I actually own two 3d printers myself.
So, we'll talk about that one later.
We can talk about that. There are interesting things. I mean, it's affordable at an individual level which is crazy.
Yeah, that's fabulous. So, what haven't we covered yet that we really should to give people a picture of manufacturer?
Well, the other thing you know, we're talking to entry level jobs. I mean, there's talent to be had all the way through the food chain. Let's think about military folks. People who are coming off deployment and things. It's, they make wonderful supervisors and you talk to somebody whose post military, and what do they miss. They miss camaraderie. They miss being part of something of significance. They need a home, check out manufacturing. A lot of folks come out of military; their MLS is don't match. You know, maybe I was like a tank mechanic. It doesn't match a skill set that industry needs, retool. There's a lot of funding available.
Military people transition skill sets in the machining, assembly, welding, technician support but then area supervision because it all scales, as we looked at the jobs coming being basically home sourcing coming from China, coming from Asia, and coming this way. We're adding a lot of manufacturing folks at the shop level and it's not so much supervision, is it is helping people resolve issues that keep them productive, right. It's not about correcting Jeff's behavior. It's about, hey, problem solving the figure out well, why isn't this producing exactly the way it's supposed to and all the way to area managers, the plant managers to operations directors and VPS. I mean, there's a whole pipeline of opportunity.
It's what I refer to as eliminating friction.
Yeah, it isn't. I mean, there is some of that. The workforce today is got some challenges. Jeff, I think we talked at one time before the call that when I hired, you see like a high school kid, kid came into a factory, and they had kind of corrupted. They learn bad language, same thing in the military. When the military, we learn bad language and then we come home and leave or like it with us, they go home for the after work and they maybe say foul words. Today, 30, 40 years later, kids come in but from high school, we have to detox from saying stuff that will get them fired in the work force. It's like a lot of kids, their natural interaction with each other in the high school setting is a lot rougher than it is in a factory setting. A lot of more inappropriate things get said in the high school setting that never would be said today in a factory setting. So, we do have to have some degree of nurturing and structure and I use the word love, you know, really is how do you bond somebody out because there's no perfect employee. You know, if I'm a fact, if I'm a plant manager, I think everybody I'm going to hire is going to be perfect. I'm going to be just disappointed a lot. I do need to acclimate people into the workplace.
And was recommending, if you're a parent who's talking to your son or daughter about manufacturing as a possibility, what should they be keeping an eye out for behaviorally or interest lies in my cause them to bring up the conversations. It's not something that a lot of high schools or for that matter, colleges are going to have the conversation about. How might that conversation get launched and what might they bring up?
I think people should just explore things. You know, it's a crazy thing. Like again, Jeff, I don't know if you bought, yes. I think Bowling Green Kentucky used to make what the Corvette Camaro. I know I'm mixing imagine, you used to be able to go visit your car. Take a tour. kids took colleges all the time, go to our factory. I mean post COVID you know but it's coming quick. I mean, things are opening up. I think like RV manufacturers, you're paying 100 and some 1000 bucks, 150,000 bucks for your RV, a lot of them used to let you come visit your RV while was being made.
So, there actually are wired for tours. Caterpillar was, John Deere was. We'll call them up again, post COVID. Let's wait a little bit and say hey, do you guys do public tours. I'd love to come through and just take a look at things because things really have changed over 30 years, 40 years and you can just see if your kid groups on it. You'll think about it. You'll drive all over the country to take your kid to college to check it out. Check out a couple factories and the other thing community colleges. Check those up because there's really neat programs going on and community colleges because again, where do we get our talent and where do we do some early feeding. We do it there.
Excellent. Jim, how can people find out more about you and the work that you do?
So, again, if they want to learn more about me and my company and I was really focused on the word integrity, so it's, Integris 360 Leadership (i360L). Because we incorporate. There's no easy solution, so you can check it out (i360L) and just check out the website and I would love. I'm an open networker. I'd love to meet people on LinkedIn. You can check me on LinkedIn, its linkedin.com/In/Jimrink. There are a number of us by the way.
But you got the name.
I got it first. But if you google me, you will find some very eclectic s in the world and I'd like to be part of them.
Jim, thank you and folks, we'll be back soon with more. I'm Jeff Altman, The Big Game Hunter. Hope you enjoy today's show. If you're watching on YouTube, click the like button, share it do something that lets people know that you enjoyed it and found that was worthwhile. I also want to encourage you if you listen to the podcast share that too. Again, the more that people discover my content, it helps that much many more people. Also, I mentioned my website, thebiggamehunter.US as 1000s of posts that will help you with a job search hiring more effectively managing and leading and resolving workplace related issues. All in the context of trying to have you enjoy your life including your professional life as well. I've got my own LinkedIn profile at linked.com/In/thebiggamehunter. Mentioned that just saw the interview. I like knowing I'm helping folks and again, at my website, there's a ton of great information services, I have available out there. You can schedule time for a free discovery call, find out about my video courses and much more. Hope you have a terrific day and most importantly be great. Take care.
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