The Emotional Rollercoaster in Job Search (and How to Deal With It) | JobSearchTV.com
By Jeff Altman, The Big Game Hunter
Although I usually interview people to help people with the hard skills of a job search, my interview with Karen Litzinger, the author of “Help Wanted: An A to Z Guide to Cope with the Ups and Downs of the Job Search” https://amzn.to/3UInhafis one where we discuss the emotional side of job search.
Jeff Altman 00:04
So my guest today is Karen Litzinger. Karen is a career counselor, professional speaker, and obsessive fan of daily inspiration books. And she’s coached
1000s of clients, including 20 years in her own business, Litzinger Career Consulting out of Pittsburgh. She’s a licensed professional counselor, and certified career counselor, and lives with her dog, Georgie the Wonder Dog. Karen, by the way, is the author of Help Wanted: an A to Z Guide to Cope with the Ups and Downs of Job Search. Karen, welcome. Thanks for making time today.
Karen Litzinger 00:44
Oh, happy to be here. Thanks, Jeff.
Jeff Altman 00:47
You’re very welcome. So, folks, we decided to do a show about something I don’t cover very often. Most of my shows deal with hard skills. At the same time, there’s another dimension to job search that I tend not to address that often and Karen, I thought would be ideal for this. And it’s the emotional side of the job search and how we handle our emotions, and deal with the emotional roller coaster of the job search. So Karen, how did you develop this expertise? Like how did you get interested in this? How did you dig into it?
Karen Litzinger 01:26
Well, it actually came, the spark initially came from a client, who was longtime, very talented, struggling with a job search. And he emailed me in response to my newsletter saying, ‘Do you have any words of hope or an encouragement?’ Of course, I tried to do that all along. But for some reason, I was just trying to find something I looked online, I couldn’t find anything but a few quotes, maybe on hope. As I realized, then, gosh, there’s a missing piece here. And then actually, what happened is, a couple years later. I was at a retreat and, this whole book came to me– A to Z of emotions and issues. And I just again realized this–All the books about about resumes and networking, there’s not much out there. They’re really focused on encouraging people through these ups and downs. And that’s, that’s really where the roots of it came from.
Jeff Altman 02:24
Gotcha. So we’re gonna start off with the letter B. Today, we’re skipping over A. We’re going to go to belief to be, and I thought this was delightful when I read the book. What we believe about ourselves in the job search can affect outcomes, our thoughts and beliefs affect our feelings, which affect our behavior. I know you wrote it, but true or not true.
Karen Litzinger 02:49
It’s kind of the roots that almost summarizes the book, even though obviously, there’s a lot of different kinds of support, but it’s really rooted in what I would consider cognitive psychology– that our thoughts and beliefs affect our emotions and feelings, and that affects our behaviors, and therefore success, job search success. So if we are, you know, telling ourselves, I’m never gonna get a job, or I’m too old, or whatever, where our emotions are going to feel down, and we’re just going to find someone just pull the covers over their head. And so there’s no action, there’s no behaviors. So that’s really one of the roots of what I think is a strategy that can help people in the search.
Jeff Altman 03:36
I know Zig Ziglar, who’s one of the great motivational speakers of many moons ago, used to talk about, you know, ‘I think you’ve got a case of stinking thinking,’ because he was a real homespun kind of guy, and a lot of fun to listen to. But folks, you have a case of stinking thinking sometimes it doesn’t really serve you.
Karen Litzinger 03:59
So negative Gremlins. Gremlins. There’s some book written about gremlins. And I still remember in graduate school, there was a book called Talking to Yourself and the whole negative self-talk. I mean, that just stuck with me. And I really think it’s, it affects what we do and how we feel.
Jeff Altman 04:16
So true. So if someone is presented with the stinking thinking, the beliefs that weigh them down, thus interfere with them performing at their best, do you have suggestions for how people can deal with that?
Karen Litzinger 04:33
No, actually, that’s interesting, because we haven’t connected on this, but I actually do that often, or at different times with my clients. And I have them write down, I ask them what they’re thinking, what are their fears and obstacles and I have them write it down. And I ask them, ‘Well, how does that make them feel? What do they think the results of what they would do? And then I encourage them of reframing it. There’s actually a psychologist Albert Ellis, who was the roots of this. And he kind of was into disputing it, like an attorney. Never get a job? Never? You’re too old? Do you think that . . . just sort of looking at that, and then reframing it in a realistic way, not a Pollyanna-like, ‘I’ll trust I’ll get a job at the right time.’ And, some people can do that. There’s, you know, a way of thinking, but it’s, it’s maybe something like, you know, I won’t know unless I try. I’m concerned about it, but I have other skills that I can leverage.’ And so it’s trying to think of something else, to save yourself. It’s still believable, but makes you feel a little better. And so I walk them through that, and ten they see they feel better, their emotions and their behaviors. ‘Yeah, I think I can make that call. I’d be willing to send that email.’ So I tell them to like write, and I’ll post it, put it on their mirror, put it on their phone.
Jeff Altman 05:51
I always think of the lies we tell ourselves. And the classic one that so many people I run into harbor is ageism, which exists. And of course, people cop to it pretty quickly, without looking in the mirror at their own participation in what the issues are that cause them to be rejected. So the belief that, ‘Oh, I’m never gonna find a job, I’m old, that 28 or 38, or 48-year-old manager is going to look at me and go, “He’s too old, she’s too old. They’ll never hire me.’ Well, maybe it’s true. But it’s not true every time. And you don’t know, until such time as you actually put your best foot forward, prepare properly, rehearse and practice and do the things that make yourself desirable.
Karen Litzinger 06:48
Right, right. And the thing that’s interesting is, I mean, I always talk to people about strategies, you know, just for whatever ageism, oh, you know, take a computer class, emphasize that, talk about your energy level with whatever exercise. So you can have those strategies, you can say those things, but you need to kind of believe them. And it doesn’t help if you’re saying negative things to yourself, because it still might seep out a little bit. So there is the strategy, but there’s the belief and the emotions to ground it.
Jeff Altman 07:20
I know I facilitated psychodrama for many years and thus I think about the voices on the shoulders and the one that screaming, “You’re Too Old!! You’re too this,’ your . . . Shut up. Just stop talking so much and not being particularly helpful. And you . . .could you talk up a little bit, please, I’d really appreciate your input here.’ And helping people activate the other voice. Because it’s not that this one’s lying. It’s a protective quality to keep someone from getting hurt, I get that. But it’s proactively hurting versus reactively responding, which is what this one can do for yours. So folks, if you listen to this in podcast form, the yelling 
version, the loud one is on my left shoulder, the positive one’s on my right shoulder, the loud one always yells the negative stuff, the one on the right shoulder is being a little too quiet, and needs to speak up a little bit more. And thus, no lying here. They’re both right. But one is quieter than the other. It needs to be heard more frequently.
Karen Litzinger 08:46
I agree. I agree. I remember when I did some research for a program of survive and thrive. It was for outplacement survivors. And, and I think it was that the measurement is 80% of our thoughts are negative. That was the bad news. And then the good news was most of them don’t come true.
Jeff Altman 09:06
And that’s why I call them the lies we tell ourselves. Because we are lying to ourselves most of the time. We do make mistakes. We do fail. It does happen. But we lie much too often. And we believe the lies which is the worst part of it. Which leads to emotions. Notice the book folks emotions. The job search can bring a roller coaster of emotions. It may begin with confusion about goals or anger about a better past or current job. A great fitting job lead can bring hope and an interview can bring excitement or fear waiting to hear back after interviews and emails can bring frustration. (You think?) Over time, lack of jobs search success and financial concerns can bring depression or despair. There may be another lead. Then there may be another lead and another round of the roller coaster. It is so true. And, yhow do we stay at a level? Which is, or more level? I don’t think that we can ever be completely level? Because it is a roller coaster that people are on because they care so much.
Karen Litzinger 10:17
Yes, yes, yes. It’s interesting. So I have something, I’ll start with the level part. And then . . . well just a little thing I’ll say is you need to feel some of those negative emotions. So you don’t want to just gloss them over, keep them in, because that’s another problem. And we can talk a little bit about that. But the level part. I mean, I talk to people about coping. And there’s my effect when I’m doing these virtual job club tours, and it’s focused on resilience. And I talk about three categories of coping– emotional coping, mental coping, and physical coping. So it’s really dealing with stress, so that, that that’s part of the leveling,. So when something happens, you’ve got some strategies to go to. Another thing that, I guess I would say, that I often say, toward the end when I show like a big picture of the earth, you know, it’s kind of keep perspective. You know, like we are, we are in the midst, you are in, you know, the midst of intense things. But 10 years from now, you’re going to look back at this, and it’s going to be a blip. It’s not the most important thing in your life. You know, we identify so much with our jobs. But it’s, it’s, it’s really not the most important thing in life. It is at that moment when that rejection comes through and when you’re worried about finances, but it’s it’s trying to put it in perspective. And I’ll say one other thing that I remember when I ran a job seeker support group, and I still remember this one person was very quiet, very down. And when she volunteered at the library, she just transformed herself because she was giving and she felt productive. And for some reason, that just popped into my mind– not leveling, but as an example of a coping, and perspective taking strategy
Jeff Altman 12:20
And, folks, you know what you really need. I know that at a deep level you know it because you’ve figured this out before, in the workplace, and, in other places. And these strategies do work. They do the work to help balance you, whether that’s exercise, meditation, volunteering, giving of yourself, you know, the techniques that work for you. And that really will help you be much more effective as you interview. Even if you’re facing frustration, you know, you’ll know how to bounce back. Because in the workplace, you’ve made mistakes before, right? You’ve been on the carpet, you’ve done all sorts of things that have caused people to criticize you. And I know right now, you’re the best critic there is right? So figure out some of those strategies to deploy when you really need to shut up that voice on the left shoulder and help the other one get a little bit louder.
Karen Litzinger 13:20
Yeah, absolutely.
Jeff Altman 13:21
I pulled that another one for you. Okay. Folks, I’ve been doing this at random and this has been fun– Rejection.This is the one I opened up to. Well, it’s a common view that we have to go through many no’s to get to a yes whether job, relationship or sales. It doesn’t make it any easier. The ‘we found someone who’s a better match’ reply, if you’re lucky enough to hear back, can chip away at one’s confidence and identity. And then opposite that, on the page is a quote from Aristotle Onassis, who was Mr. Jackie Kennedy for a while. And President Kennedy was assassinated, ‘It is during our darkest moments that we must focus to see the light.’
Karen Litzinger 14:10
What was the end of my quote there? His, quote?
Recruiters Are Not Your Friends
Jeff Altman 14:13
During our darkest moments, that we must focus to see the light.
Karen Litzinger 14:17
Yes, yes. Yes. Yes.
Jeff Altman 14:19
So how do people get refocused in your thinking?
Karen Litzinger 14:24
You know, I mean, one part of it is expectations to begin with, that there are going to be rejections as a matter of fact. I was doing a session coaching career counselors and preparing people to know numbers, the numbers game. You know, out of 250 applications, one person will get the job. Or a good response rate is 20% or 10% is an average response rate. So, you want to kind of put armor on yourself first, and then and then the other is some self-care and then I also encourage people to even look back at positive notes or reviews that they’ve had to remind themselves of their worth, and their competence, and then also to remind themselves that they are more than their job kind of as what we were talking about before. And support, you know, for resilience is significant. One of the things that I do remember, another angle is is actually preparing for rejection. So this is like a double edged sword because of course, I want you to visualize positive and visualize, you know, this is your job, right? You know, that’s the thing. But at the same time, one, you don’t want to stop your job search whenever you’ve got this really hot, exciting lead. And so you might even think about, well, if the start, you know, you got your third interview, you think it’s it, but of course, there’s two or three candidates, so somebody’s not going to get chosen there. So to think about, what am I going to do, if I don’t get chosen? Yeah, don’t focus too much there. Don’t like get into negative spiral. But okay, if I don’t get chosen, I’m going to take a day off. I’m going to go to a movie. And then I’m going to contact this networking contact. And so that would be another thing.
Jeff Altman 16:13
Right and folks, always think in terms of motion–Motion and emotion. Because the emotion will help you generate positive motion, and the positive motion is going to feed and create good emotions for you, that’s going to create even more motion. So action begets action, and helps you feel better. I know I mentioned earlier meditation and exercise, and whatever it is that moves you forward. And remember, you just need one– that one firm that drops down on one knee and proposes to you. So just keep going. You know, wallowing, lying in the wallow, feeling the misery isn’t particularly helpful isn’t it?
Karen Litzinger 17:04
You know, it’s not. And I do want to say one thing about that negative emotions, that . . .the importance of it, because it can seep out, even if you’re not thinking
about it, you might think you’re putting your best face forward. But it might be why someone’s not responding to you for networking. And then one story that I just want to share related to an employer. I was coming out of a job fair where I was speaking, and I saw an employer I knew and she asked what I’m up to, I told her about the book, and she says, ‘Oh, people really need that.’ She said, ‘at the job fair, I had someone come up to me and say, you know, I applied online three times, and I haven’t heard back from anyone you know, and just that negative, that’s, that was even more direct than negative seeping out. But if you’ve got this negativity, it’s going to impact your search, and you might not even know you have it. So you want to just be very aware and take care of yourself.
Jeff Altman 18:10
You don’t want to ever present yourself, like you’re carrying a burden on your back, your shoulders become rounded, your voice starts to have less animation to it. It’s a turn off to people, you know. Think of it from the hiring manager’s perspective. She or he’s in a situation where everyone kind of sounds the same after a while. They all look nice, they present well. And if you’re the one who sounds like Eyore (or if you don’t not have that frame of reference from Winnie the Pooh), if you sound like the depressed individual all the time, carrying the burdens of the previous failures and making them visible. Who wants to hire that? Who wants that around them? They just want to have someone who they can relate to and know it relates to depression all that well. True? True?
Karen Litzinger 19:07
Yes, yes, yes.
Jeff Altman 19:11
Kindness. I’m doing this at random. I’m gonna start like,
Karen Litzinger 19:18
Oh, this is fun. So I’m gonna start with the quote, that’s opposite the text. There are three ways to ultimate success. The first way is to be kind. The second way is to be kind. And the third way is to be kind. And that’s from Fred Rogers. You know, Mr. Rogers, folks.
Karen Litzinger 19:38
Yeah, he’s from Pittsburgh. I don’t if you know that. So I like adore him!
Jeff Altman 19:43
He’s a sweet man or was . . .Is he
Karen Litzinger 19:46
He was. He was right. Yeah.
Finding The Career That Fits You
Jeff Altman 19:49
Kindness softens our edges. Although we may feel most in need of kindness during the job search. We are well served to extend that. I’m just gonna read one more paragraph. ‘Sometimes we can feel we are being treated unkindly in this job search. We may not be, we may be. Not hearing back in a timely way, after an interview or from a networking lead, people have busy schedules and competing needs. Give them the benefit of the doubt. You’ll likely feel better. The alternative may be bitterness, which will not help in the search.
Karen Litzinger 20:26
Right. Right. It’s just your mindset, your mindset, being forgiving and kind. And you know, just to do whatever you can to be positive. And I don’t mean, force yourself to be positive. I mean soften yourself. Try not to be angry when things don’t go your way. Because you don’t know that recruiter may have had a death in their family. We all get so much email. I say to even my clients when they say to us, should you/should I follow up? I’m like, ‘Yeah, follow up. Have you ever missed an email? I’ve missed an email, you know. So give people the benefit of the doubt. And being kind not only to the people in your search, but when you’re kind in general. Sy hello to people. Be nice to the clerk, you’re gonna get some positive energy back. So, I mean, it’s sort of interesting, because obviously, why don’t think of kindness when we think of a job or strategy. But, of course, it’s the A to Z. So kindness is one I chose. But the idea of this is about positive things, too. Hope, resilience, gratitude, it affects our perspective. If we look, you have tried to exercise the positive muscle in addition to coping with the negative things.
Jeff Altman 21:48
And it begs the question, and I’m going to steer toward speaking to men here, because I know, men fee–women, obviously feel the burdens, but many of them have better coping mechanisms than the men who’ve been who’ve been trained to shut down their emotions and be blank. And it doesn’t work. And I’m curious how you suggest people soften and open up and become take more of the risk of opening up so people can connect with them, or attach to them? Come on! You’ve been in enough of these groups!
Karen Litzinger 22:33
Yeah, interesting. Interesting. So I guess I want to start earlier related to one of the things you said about men may have a harder time even expressing let alone softening. So I do want to make the point as I did earlier, but especially when you do need to feel, or in some fashion, work through the emotions, I don’t mean you have to cry. I don’t mean it has to be like that. But to experience it, the only way forward is through. So it might be running. It might be a home improvement project, it might be punching a pillow, you need to focus and get any anger, or sadness or regret, or feel like you’re treated unfairly out, because that’s the path to the future. So that’s one of the things I guess I wanted to say, since you brought that up. And then in terms of in those moments, you know, I think, I think it would be to try to put yourself in the other person’s shoes to be like, ‘Well, I think they should be better, or should be over this, or they’re just whining or I don’t know, whatever. Or they should reply to me. And just be like, ‘Well, I don’t know, really, what they’re going through. Let me give them the benefit of the doubt.’ So it really kind of comes down to try not to be judgmental. Here’s another Oh, I forget who it was, might have been Wayne Dyer, that it’s better to be have peace than be right. You know, so the whole idea of just . . . the peace is for you, too. You know to because it’s never peaceful when we are in turmoil. Somebody is having turmoil. Yes.
Jeff Altman 24:30
I know for a lot of men, they repress the term well. You use the example of punching a pillow. I know from having facilitated as much psychodrama as I have, behind the anger is a lot of sadness. A lot behind the sadness is a lot of anger. And thus, getting to that place wherever it is for you, even if you’re feeling ashamed of your circumstances will serve you to really do some of this stuff so you can be the best you.
Karen Litzinger 25:05
Yes. And fear would be another thing that’s often behind all of these things. Fear of, well, will there be money for my family. You’re saying ashamed, and shame, . . . I want to share something related to shame since you brought it up, because it was really interesting. I was talking to my cohort of career counselors, private practice, folks. And, and they were talking about issues their clients were feeling. And one was shame because, like, at this point in time, it’s a pretty good job market. And people are like, ‘Oh, my gosh, if I don’t have a job, I feel really embarrassed.’ But the reality is, it’s different for everybody, depending on your industry, depending on your age, depending on your selection, you’re looking for what it is that you really want. And so that would be another just . . . I don’t know, I just kind of came up with that because it reminded me of what you were saying when you said the word shame that it’s important to just accept yourself as well as . . . accept other people. Be gentle, you know, with yourself and other people. And also be gentle with these other people. What would motivate you? Be gentle with these other people as you would want them to be gentle with you?
The “What Color is My Hat” Brainteaser
Jeff Altman 26:21
I can’t do that at all. Yeah, they should. It’s me, I need me. They need to pay attention to me. And it doesn’t work that way, folks, you’re supposed to pay 
attention to them, and help them solve their problem. And they’re confused. They don’t know quite what to do. They’re looking for some way of figuring that out. And sometimes they use eeny, meeny, miny, moe. Sometimes they’re told what to do and it has nothing to do with you. So what you can always do is be your best you. Was that the one. . . they’ll want to get to know you better, if you’re your best to you? Without that, you’re just like everyone else. And who wants that? They’re noy going to choose that.
Karen Litzinger 27:14
And if that best you is not for that employer, it will hopefully be for another employer because you want a match. They want a match. That’s what you’re looking at.
Jeff Altman 27:24
One more, right? Okay. Sure. The quote is from Deepak, Deepak Chopra. ‘Each of us has a unique strand and the intricate web of life, and here to make a contribution.’ And the text reads, ‘a job search is a time to reflect on what makes you unique. Reflection can help. The rest isn’t necessary. That’s, that’s the golden saying
Karen Litzinger 27:47
That’s what we just talked about actually. It’s kind of interesting, because I know I end that by saying, if this person doesn’t want you, your quirkiness, or whatever, someone else will, so you want to, to know yourself and also to make a good choice for yourself. I’m obviously into the career goal, look at yourself, etc. And, and what you’re saying, Be your best self and be you. Be authentic.
Jeff Altman 28:11
And it’s a fun book, folks. I’ll just simply say, I pulled things as random strands here. And they flow beautifully into the interview. Again, Karen’s book is Help Wanted: An A to Z Guide to Cope with the Ups and Downs of the Job Search. It is a Beck’s Best Books Award finalist from AmericanBookFest.com. Karen, how can people find out more about you, the book, everything?
Karen Litzinger 28:40
Sure, I would just say the best thing is going to my website, which is KarensCareerCoaching.com. So you can read about the book, get a link, you can see it on Amazon, you know, ordered anywhere, signed copy through my site, and actually Amazon just to give a feel for the book you knew read things, which was great. Yeah, there’s some sample pages on the author’s page there. And it’s really you wouldn’t even read it A to Z. You can just like open it like you did like or look at the table of contents like Oh, I feel fear today. Open it. Super short, motivational. At Karen’sCareerCoaching.com is where it is. And I also say if anyone you know, wants me to do a free program for job clubs, or wants me to donate a book to the library, I’m happy to I want to get the word out on this very underrepresented topic about emotions and the job search. I so appreciate you, Jeff, and being interested in this and inviting me to your podcast. It’s really an honor to be here.
Jeff Altman 29:41
Thank you, Karen. I appreciate the kind words and folks we’ll be back soon with more. I’m Jeff Altman, The Big Game Hunter. Visit my website, TheBigGameHunter.us There’s a ton in the blog that will help you. Plus you can schedule time for a free discovery call, a coaching session. Find that about my courses that you can rent or buy, my books and guides. There’s just a lot there in the way of resources to help you with your search, and much more I have to say; also connect with me on Linkedin at linkedin.com/in/TheBigGameHunter. Have a terrific day and most importantly, be great. Take care
[svp]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f9xu1rBkQ5E[/svp]
Why Do They Want My Pay Stubs?
ABOUT JEFF ALTMAN, THE BIG GAME HUNTER
Jeff Altman, The Big Game Hunter is a coach who worked as a recruiter for what seems like one hundred years. His work involves career coaching, as well as executive job search coaching, job coaching, and interview coaching. He is the host of “No BS Job Search Advice Radio,” the #1 podcast in iTunes for job search with over 2400 episodes.
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