When times are complicated or chaotic like they are now, how do you change careers? That’s what my conversation with Carolyn Ceniza-Levine is about.

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My guest today is Caroline Ceniza-Levine, the founder of The Dream Career Club, and a career coach, writer and media personality on job market issues. She's a senior contributor to Forbes Careers, and an adjunct at Columbia University. Caroline helps experienced professionals and tech media, financial services, and other industries make a great living. We like hearing about making a great living, doing work they love, Caroline, thank you so much. I really appreciate it.

Well, thanks for having me on the show.

You're very welcome. And folks, this is take two. I messed up for some reason, the first time we did this, had a great interview. didn't record. So it's going to be an even better one. I promise you that. So let me just start off by asking you the most blunt question. Here we are post-election, we are dealing in the middle of COVID. Is this still a good time to change careers?

Yeah, I think actually counter intuitively an uncertain market or a chaotic market can be a great time to change careers. So first of all, you're more reflective typically when you have these difficult markets. And I think that brings a certain amount of motivation. So you start thinking about if not now, when? And that's, I think that's that's good for you. You know, that gives you inspiration. I think that you want it more, because you get reflective and that desire is actually a big competitive advantage, both to the employer in the sense that they want people who really want to be there, who are energetic and enthusiastic. And so if you have that desire, that's really attractive. And then, I also think just practically speaking, when you have that desire, you're more likely to push through the the grunt work, frankly. And then, regarding the chaos of the market, and you might think, well, if I try something, and it's really hard and it doesn't work out . . . well, everyone's having a difficult time in this market. So I think it's actually a great time to experiment, and to try different things. Because, you know, if you do something, and it lasts a couple of weeks, you know, there's there's no real question mark there, because I think everyone's doing things differently right now. And so you have, I think, at least a few months to do some experimentation.

I agree with you wholeheartedly. What I see is firms are still hiring. It's amazing to me that firms are still hiring. And for those of you who are considering a career switch, it's a great time, in my view, because, as Caroline said, you can be contemplative. You can think. You can sort things out and see who you know, who can help you with this along the way. Now, let's just dive right into the process of helping people change careers. And where does someone start? How do they go about doing this?

Yeah, I think, again, if we think about that, contemplative, that reflective nature and think about the importance of desires, it really starts with figuring out, you know, what you're interested in. And I find that people do it in two ways. You know, there are some people who look at their background and their expertise, and they say, "Where might this fit." I actually like to go the opposite direction, which is just simply, "What am I interested in?" And it doesn't matter whether or not I believe I have the background or the expertise. I'll figure that out, depending on where my interests take me. And the reason why I like the second version better is because I think that people close them off too quickly. They close off options. If they just look at what their backgrounds might be telling them, because they might want to do something completely different. And if you don't let yourself really follow your curiosities, you're not going to find where they lead.

And folks, you can figure it out. It's not like there's a shortage of information in the world. Certainly, at this time, there are tons of courses without having to spend, you know, hundreds of thousands of dollars a year in order to develop deep expertise. Why not? First just figure out what you're interested in and go with that. Even if it means "I'm interested in sports. I want to work for a sports team." I'm picking an extreme example. Why not start exploring there?

Yeah, I think just, you know, really reading about things, talking to people, like you said, taking a course as opposed to going for a graduate degree, there are small ways that you can experiment. And then you can decide, "Oh, you know, this wasn't as interesting, as I thought now that I talked to people who actually work in the field," or "now that I've read more about the business," as opposed to, you know, let's say, just watching sports, right? So I would I would really be looking at, you know, what is it like to work there, as opposed to maybe consume your favorite product or, or play sports or watch sports, like you mentioned,

You know, it's not enough to own the sweatshirt. Not enough to have the T shirt, I'm going to keep working on the sports analogy, because I think for most people, that's such an extreme fantasy that it's beyond possibility. And yet, I know a lot of people who love sports.

Yeah, but when you think about sports, and you know, just following that interest, you know, of course, there's playing sports, and there are sports teams. There are sports leagues. There are sports venues. There's sports equipment. There are training, and you know, just Junior sports. If you think about everything from peewee to Little League, to college sports, you know, all the way up. So there are a lot of ways to get involved with sports. And if you think about all of the jobs that are in other organizations, things like HR, and marketing and legal and operations, those will exist within teams and leagues and venues and equipment, companies and clothing companies. So there are a lot of ways that you can get involved without being, you know, a top tier athlete, for example,

Or a top tier coach or whatever. They all have other functions that support the core of the business. So we've been talking about doing some of the homework, the research, the reading, the talking to people. Dare I say, I'm going to bring up one of those terms-- informational interviewing, like how does someone do an informational interview? How would they go about it?

Yeah, so I think that the best way is to try and get as much information as you can, yourself before talking to people. The thing about an informational interview is that it's both to get information, but it obviously is a reflection on you. So you . . . it is a mini interview on the other direction too, because if it's someone who's working in that field, let's say, sports or they can refer you to other people. They might have heard about opportunities, and might be able to give you some leads. And they're not necessarily going to want to do that if you're brand spanking new and haven't done any of your homework. So, there are ways to follow professional associations related to your target fields, umm, to join up with professional meetups, and lots of things are meeting virtually. Again to read books and articles about the business that you're in, and then start formulating what I call hypotheses. So don't just ask someone, you know, what's the best place to start. Have in your mind, "Okay, these are three ways that I feel like I could get started on this career path. Does this make sense?" And this way, you're not telling the person, "I want you to do all the work and just give me everything. I've thought it through and let's work on this together.

All the work? I hate that. "No, you figure it out. For me, I'm gonna sit back, like mini royalty and go. 'No, I don't think so. What else you got in mind? No, I don't think so.' Come on, folks do some work on this.

That's like the career coaching equivalent of feeding someone grapes, right? It's like, I'm just gonna sit here. I'll take a grape for the top companies a grape for the top roles. I mean, it's you know, some things are obviously public information.

And it's not hard. So we're starting to do informational interviews and gather some reconnaissance, and get the sense of some of the things a person might do, as part of this explanation. What happens next?

So you can see that we're moving along the path of translating your interest into a specific role, right? So, you've had this interest in sports, you start looking at the business of sports, you have some ideas about career paths, you talk to people who are actually in and around the area and you confirm or you deny, you know, some of the information that you see. You'll have a better idea at this point about the nuances of the field that you're interested in. And then you can start looking at your own background, and saying, "Okay, where do I fit in, in terms of my existing expertise, my skills, my personal attributes, my experience? Where are there gaps, potentially? Where might the other industries that I've been in, let's say, you're coming from financial services, just throw out something completely different from sports, where might my skills and expertise and experience from that field translate nicely into sports, and that might actually be a competitive advantage.

And thus, you could work for an agent, for example,

You could work for an agent, you could work in house and and work in, let's say, statistics, or business intelligence, or it might even be, you know, something like marketing or HR, because Financial Services is so competitive type A people. And so you might say, "Okay, I've been in this environment, where it's really competitive to, to pull people from other companies into into our financial firm. And so I'm going to bring that to, you know, a competitive league or to a competitive team, or whatever that is.

And I'll just use an example from a young man I worked with not long ago, graduated college, would love to work for his favorite team. Love to work for them. And the process became, "okay, I know your parents, they don't want you doing this. They want me to help you do something else. But I don't want to ignore this. Let me help you with this process of finding out what it would take to work for your favorite team. So, who do you know who might know someone who . . . ?" And through a professor, he was able to get to, you know, he was a data science grad. And he got to a person with another team, who's able to talk him through from a data science perspective, what teams look for. Now, he's found a job, is starting, I believe, in the next three weeks, and he can start doing some of the work on the side to approach what it is he wants to do. What he would dream of doing.

Yeah, no, that makes absolute sense. I mean, I talked about how you might want to position, let's say, some of your other experience. It's outside experience, but it actually might be relevant. You know, I had a client in financial services and she had 20 years of experience in financial services. So she was deep in the weeds there and her entire background. If you looked at her resume, if you looked at her LinkedIn, bank after bank after bank, and so a very specific experience. She actually wanted to break into education-- K through 12 education. So obviously, she researched the field. She talked to people. She highlighted things in her background that were relevant there. She was already volunteering in leadership and development roles with educational institutions. But the one thing that she brought in. She was working within a school system that really wanted to talk about ROI, for return on investment for, you know, how much money they were spending per student or per school. And so when she interviewed, she really highlighted how her financial background was exactly the background that they were talking about. And in that way, she actually gave herself a competitive advantage, even though she wasn't from the education industry. That was actually what they were looking for. And she was able to play the outsider status to her advantage.

A lot work with people who, one of the advantages they have is that they're bilingual or multilingual, and thus, are able to position that into banking roles, financial services roles where their background up until that point, was working for government. Like how does that fit? And the answer was customer orientation, multilingual or bilingual background, and thus be able to transition to banking, and financial services for foreign customers.

Yeah, and clearly, in that example, the bank, you know, services a bilingual or multilingual population, right. So if you're dealing with a bank, where they are a hyper local bank, in the middle of the US where they don't need to . . . anyone to know any other languages, then that particular employer, you wouldn't be able to make the switch there. So it's really all about figuring out, you know, what does that new industry, that specific company within that industry, that specific role within that company, you know, what do they need. At the end of the day employers are trying to solve a problem. And so it's less about, "Are you an insider or an outsider," and more about, "can you actually do this? Can you help me out with this?" Because that's why I need to hire. Because I have this problem to solve.

And it begs the question of how can someone be an insider? How they present themselves, like an insider during their interviews. I know . . . and leaping forward in the process, assuming that someone's going to get an interview. And many of you may not be at that point yet. But I heard that word "insider," I want to leap in there on it, and ask how does someone interviewed like an insider when they get there?

Yeah, absolutely. So you know, we were talking about identifying your interests, doing some research around those interests, talking to people that know about the nuances or who are insiders themselves, right, and then positioning your background, your resume, your LinkedIn, the way that you talk about yourself in a way that resonates with your new field. And so that's very similar than to what you would have to do in an interview situation. It's in all of that research, and informational interviewing and repositioning of yourself, you have figured out what is it that this employer needs? What's that pain point? Or what's that specific problem they're trying to solve? In the case of my financial services client, and she really recognized talking to a number of folks that were active in the industry, this was a real pain point for them being able to calculate that ROI and being more bottom line oriented, which was something counterculture at the time. And so she was able to highlight things in her background, during the interview process, again, that made her seem like "I have this competitive advantage. I've already done this," even though she was an outsider, when it came to education, she was an insider, when it came to the problem they were trying to solve,

Right. And when fundamentally you think about it, folks, it's all about translating your background in a way that they get it.

Yeah, you're the one that has to make that translation. You can't say, "here's a laundry list of my skills and my interests. You figure it out. I feel like we're talking about the the feeding grapes, career coaching and hiring style. Umm, you know, interviewing, like an insider really comes down to, I feel like, you know, being the change, having embodied the change and not talking about the change. It's not about saying, you know, "trust me, I'll learn." It's about already having learned because you did that research. You did that networking. You know, I liken it to dating and to that icky ex boyfriend or girlfriend is trying to come back and it's like, "trust me, I'll change. Tell me what I'm supposed to do. And I'll do it." And of course, what do we say? We say "no," because if you really loved me, you would already know. And employers are like, if you really already wanted to be in sports or in education, or you know, whatever it is, you would already know what my pain points are, what the problems are that you can just solve and be specific about your contribution.

And that also involves your resume, folks. If you're submitting a resume in whatever manner you do it, and you're expecting to get a result from the submission, or from the introduction that's going to be made. You got to translate it there so they get you, because otherwise, you're just another piece of spam that's coming in.

Yeah, I do feel like the resume for a career change. I mean, that's probably the the least helpful marketing tool just because it has your chronology, it has your, your past, and you're really trying to get them to look at you and see the future. So the resume is very much like that act, you know, it's like, trust me, I'll change but like, I know you already. I know what you did before. And that's what the resume does.

I'm sorry, for laughing. I've had those moments. It's been a long time. But I've had those times, I'll be different. I promise. I'm getting off of that. How does someone get the interview? How do you think someone winds up being introduced? isn't an introduction?

Yeah. I mean, yeah, I think there was a Freudian slip for a reason it is an introduction. I mean, I think, just like I had said, the resume really is the the least helpful of the tools, because it's such a backward looking document. It emphasizes things you've done in the past, and the definition of career changes that you're trying to do, something you hadn't done. It can be helpful if let's say, you're keeping your role constant, just changing industry. So let's say that you are a statistician, or you've already been working in big data, in finance, or in some other area and you're moving into sports, you least have that big data to translate over, you're still be at a disadvantage to someone who is big data in sports. So it highlights your differences, rather than making someone want to talk to you, what makes people want to talk to you is seeing you out and about in the field is getting referred to you. And so that goes back to the informational interviewing the networking, get people who are active in the field to know who you are, because they're the ones who are getting recruited. And then they can say, well, this isn't for me, but I spoke to someone who's great, and they're looking and hopefully that's you.

Amen. And, you know, I think there's so many instances where people kind of sit back with the career coaching groups. And not only that, they have no idea of what comp levels are like for themselves, in the new industry, in the new role, and they just think, is someone I worked with some years ago, who want to go from financial services to nonprofit. And look, I'm doing a base of a quarter mil plus bonus, they should pay me a quarter mil, even though I've never worked in the oil industry, and I'm taking three steps backwards.

Yeah, you know, I think you always have to look at compensation in the context of the actual market that you're going towards. It's a hyper local situations. So ,you know, you have to compare industry to industry, role to role, size of company, on age of companies. So, established companies don't pay the same as startups. Big companies don't pay the same necessarily as small companies. A geography of course, is very important. If I'm looking at a job in a major Metro like New York City, I can't compare it to Topeka, Kansas, or, or some other smaller Metro or a small town. So you really do have to think about comparing apples to apples. But I would also say that, you know, in your example, with financial services and nonprofit, when I had my client go from financial services to education, for example, she was going into a leadership role. So she was able to preserve her director title. So she didn't take as much of a hit in the base salary. But ,of course, the bonus disappeared and bonus is a big part of banking. A lot of your compensation is in bonus, depending on what your role is there. And her role was such that it was almost . . . it was more than half of her compensation. But she was ready for that. She had been saving her . . . but she was living off of her base salary. So, just being able to preserve the base salary was important to her. And she was able to do that even moving into another industry. So don't make so many assumptions about 'Oh, it's going to be more; it's going to be less. It should be the same. Look at the industry you're going to and the role and and compare apples to apples.

Absolutely. And I always think, in a wonderful example that you gave, along the way you're doing your reconnaissance. You're doing your conversations. You're learning about the field. And you can't expect the firm to suddenly break the bank to bring you on. At the point that you learn about compensation, and you discover that it's going to be significantly less, I always encourage people, pause for a second. Think about it. Don't rush in because you haven't worked it through. Let's assume you're gonna impress someone, they're gonna want to hire you. And then you make the decision. 'Oh, my God. I can't do this.' You've wasted a lot of people's time and blown a lot of lead opportunities frompeople and affected them as well.

Yeah, absolutely. You know, negotiation starts really when you start interviewing, because you're setting the stage for, you know, what level you're going to come in, what's the scope of responsibility you're able to do, what contribution you're able to make, and also what your expectations are. So, you absolutely want to have done some research in advance. So you're not wasting everybody's time. Amen.

So we've spoken about research, informational interviews, we got into the point of interviewing, and interviewing like an insider by taking information that you've accumulated over the course of the previous conversations around research and such, and then translating it in ways that makes sense for the audience that you're going to be presenting to. We've been talking about networking, introductions to get in the door, to have these conversations, to have these interviews. And to me, that's the great gift. Now, I always know that people will say to me, 'I don't really know anyone in this field. And I don't know, what do you want? How do I even get an introduction?' Excuse . . . Excuse the my bad Elmer Fudd imitation. But, you know, how does someone overcome that issue that so many people think they have?

Yeah, you know, I think that people say that because they look at their network as their immediate family and friends, people that they can think of from the top of their head, And that's not really who our network is. Our network is anybody who knows us. We might have lost touch with them. But for someone who is 10, 20 plus years into their career, their network includes people that they went to school with, potentially decades ago. People they've interned with people in their first second third job, even if they might be in their 10th job at this point. And so we can't really rely on our memory, or our calendar from the last 30 60, 90 days. We have to be willing to look line by line through our resume, in our background, our LinkedIn profile, and really rekindle those connections. Drop in. Say, "Hi." We don't know who people know. We don't know what people know. People have moved on. You might remember your kind of beer guzzling friend from college days. That person might have gone on to do something in sports or in education, or in nonprofit, or wherever it is that you where you want to go. And so I think we have to be more expansive about who our network is. And then finally, we have to be able to, to want to meet more people, because sometimes you don't know someone in the immediate company that you're targeting. And you have to be willing to send an unsolicited email or LinkedIn invite, and open up a conversation.

And the statistics are . . . I used to, quote 70% of the positions are filled as a result of networking, I keep hearing more often now it's 80, 85%, with almost . . . with over 90%, at the executive levels. So the idea becomes not just simply a network. Your network knows who you don't, which fills. . . but in the case of the executive level positions, more than half of those. So, it's an introduction from someone who you may know who knows someone who you don't. Is that what you tend to see?

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I think that statistic sounds exactly right, certainly at the executive levels, because more is known about folks at that point. I mean, the idea would be that if someone truly has that expertise, and that track record of positive experience, that many people will know them, and they will be top of mind. But even at the the middle levels, or even at the earlier levels, with social media now, we're so much more connected. It's so much easier to know something about people. You really don't have an excuse, frankly, for not having some kind of personal brand. You certainly have one. You can Google yourself and see what comes up. Probably your LinkedIn profile. But if you're good about nurturing your brand, it might be also your personal website, something that you've written, guest blogged somewhere. You don't have to be, you know, writing a book or starting your own blog or podcast.

And I'll just point out, folks, at the senior levels, if you know, for years, there was the old boys club. People referred one another for opportunities and this has extended. Women obviously have their own networks, not as powerful as the men. Male networks generally. And I hate saying that but men still control a lot of American business, particularly at the high levels. But the idea is to be located, to be found, rather than the chase after wherever you can. Yes, an introduction is great. And that's what networking is all about. But, concurrently with that, since sending out your resume or posting it on job board, the more senior you get, the less likely you get results, the idea is, what are you known for? What can you brand yourself for? What can you write about get interviewed for podcasts for? And yes, you could solicit those interviews? What can people discover about you going online or off your LinkedIn profile that would make you attractive to them?

Yeah, so, it's really about . . . I mean, take something like LinkedIn. Of course, you've got a headline. So that's a short phrase or series of words that describes yourself. So you can put your industry, you can put your your role there, several industries or several roles. If you have more of a general background, you've got the about section. So that's a summary. That's really a prose. That is your executive summary on a resume. That's your networking pitch, essentially. So that really primes the reader for what else they're going to see on your profile, which includes your expe,ience, your education, and also your activities. So things like if you post an article if you comment on someone else's article, so you can really curate your knowledge on a dynamic platform like LinkedIn.

The idea of posting something that you're interested in that's relevant to the new career is one of the easiest ways to bring mindshare to you around something. Years ago, I went out with someone who was the old Merrill Lynch's first woman commodities broker. And the the non-tech way of doing that is you'd spot an article, you'd make a copy of it, you'd send it to the person you wanted to connect with, and say, "I thought this was interesting." And, lo and behold, for her, she opened up some huge accounts, because she knew something about the person, was able to drop something into their lap that would be interesting. Now it's a lot easier.

So we're connected these days. So there's really no excuse not to be able to find someone who you know, or who knows someone who can introduce you or three degrees out.

Sure. Um, so we've, we've covered a lot so far. Without question it has been punchy and direct and to the point. What haven'twe talked about yet that we should?

Well, I think, I think we can talk about some of the common mistakes that people make when they change careers. I mean, I think we, we kind of gave a good overview. So, So maybe this is a good way of wrapping up. And and I see really three issues that are specific to career changers. We talked about getting in the inside, right? Getting inside, with your networking, inside with your research, interviewing like an insider. And really, that's about learning the new fields, and not waiting to learn, you know, not promising to learn. And so doing some work in advance so that you embody the change, rather than just waiting for someone to hire you. And then you're going to make the change. That's, that's really what you need to do. So a common mistake is that you don't do enough. And you're still kind of hoping that you're going to get paid essentially, to learn, I would say that the second thing is, then your language needs to show that you've made that change. So I would banish words like change. I would banish words like "new," "transition," and frankly, "fast learner," you know, that just highlights the fact that you don't know something. So don't be highlighting the things you don't know. You want to highlight what you do know. And then I would say the final, you know, big mistake that career changers in particular seem to make is that when they when they highlight their knowledge, it's it's about maybe facts. You know, I saw once on your website, I saw this, and and it's all about kind of this superficial book knowledge, I'll call it and it's really not about actions or about proposals potentially, things that you could contribute to your unique value proposition. And so I remind career changers to show, don't tell. Don't just tell people that you can make an impact. Really show how you've made an impact in a similar way, and how you would propose that you would do it there using their jargon, their specific issues in that industry, not your old industry. And that's really how you get around that outsider versus insider situation.

So it's not show and tell.

Show, don't tell when it comes to job search.

And that the first example that you gave of a mistake is "I can learn." It's the amateur's mistake.

Yeah. You know, it's a promise as opposed to a result. And it I get . . . I get back to that ex-boyfriend and girlfriend, right? It's that promise . . . the Promises, promises. But you know, your track record is, you know, maybe you haven't broken the promises, but your entire background is outside that career. And so, in a way, it's a trail of broken promises, because it's all about stuff that's not relevant to where you want to go.

And that's when you make a promise.

Yeah, exactly.

It's that simple. Caroline, this has been terrific. How can people find out more about you, the work you do, everything?

Yeah, absolutely. So I think the easiest way is if you just go to DreamCareerClub.com that will get you right into my website, and you can poke around there. I coach, one on one, in groups, I have an ecourse. And so there are a lot of different ways that you can get to know me. I have a book, "Jump Ship: 10 Steps to Starting a New Career." So I am all about career change. I could talk about it all day. And I really appreciate you know this, this conversation was so much fun.

Glad you enjoyed it. And folks, we'll be back soon with more. I'm Jeff Altman, The Big Game Hunter. Visit my website, TheBigGameHunter.us. There is a ton in the blog that can help you with your job search, with hiring more effectively, managing and leading changing careers, a whole host of different things, no matter what your level of experience. And addition, if you're interested in one on one coaching, at the site, you can schedule a free discovery call. I'd love to meet you and start the process of trying to help you, too. I also want to say I've havea class on Udemy on interviewing called "THe Ultimate Job Interview Framework. Very inexpensive. It will help you perform on interviews far better than without. I'm telling you, if you look at my LinkedIn profile, you'll see lots of people who have testified about my ability to help them with interviews. It's in the course or in the book that I have on Amazon. Same title, "The Ultimate Job Interview Framework--, Kindle, paperback whichever way you prefer. Hope you have a terrific day and most importantly, be great. Take care.

ABOUT JEFF ALTMAN, THE BIG GAME HUNTER

JeffAltman, The Big Game Hunter
JeffAltman, The Big Game Hunter

Jeff Altman, The Big Game Hunter is a coach who worked as a recruiter for what seems like one hundred years. His work involves career coaching, all as well as executive job search coaching, job coaching and interview coaching. He is the host of “No BS Job Search Advice Radio,” the #1 podcast in iTunes for job search with more than 2000 episodes and is a member of The Forbes Coaches Council.

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