How Do You Know You Should Change Careers? | JobSearchTV.com
By Jeff Altman, The Big Game Hunter
Often, people become paralyzed with indecision when they are considering a career transition. My guest, Michelle Yu, and I discussed her circumstances and the steps to take to decide and follow through.
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Jeff Altman
So, my guest today is Michelle Yu, a former HR executive turned career and leadership coach. After working in the tech industry for a decade, a decade, I tell you, she left the corporate world to pursue entrepreneurship and do what she loves to do– help other people reach their fullest potential. She graduated from UC Irvine and has an MBA from Duke. Michelle, welcome. I appreciate you making time today. Thank you.
Michelle Yu
Thank you for having me.
Jeff Altman
You’re welcome. So you’re someone who went through a transition. How did you know it was time to get you to transition?
Michelle Yu
Yeah, that’s a really good question. It’s being able to be super honest with yourself and ask yourself what the change needed or required is. I think a lot of times we know and we kind of suppress it. But when it’s time and we’re ready to start doing something
different. That’s really when we should start listening to our inner intuition.
Jeff Altman
Why would anyone do that!
Michelle Yu
Yeah, I mean, that’s a good question too. I think so many times, whether it be fear, or yeah, just the fear of the unknown, or, like comfort, you know, that also goes back to fear, because you don’t want to go into something that’s uncomfortable. And those are all reasons that our mind tells us to just stay and, you know, continue being miserable in your current position. But those are the signs that we need to pick up on, to know that it’s time for change.
Jeff Altman
And for you, when you were making that decision, I’m sure it was not a “I wake up one morning and decided, that’s it.” How long did you silently suffer before you went through and decided to take action?
Michelle Yu
Oh, my gosh, probably, like two years, a year and a half to two years. I knew something was off. And I think, you know, the transition from the corporate world into entrepreneurship is a pretty drastic one. But I think I started realizing some of the signs as I started really questioning, like, “Why am I doing this? This doesn’t sound right.” Wanting to start pushing back, and then getting a lot of resistance and realizing like I had my own way that I wanted to run certain things. That was a big sign for me to like, open, maybe it’s not, is it the environment or is it me, and I think it was a combination of both to realize like, okay, something has to change here.
Jeff Altman
I’m a guy with an MSW, and they always talk about person in environment. And when I think in terms of systems, I’m watching something in pro football these days, wehre a guy who’s a good player, but not a great player, is having a great season with the New York Giants. And he was talking yesterday after a particularly good game, about how he’s in an environment now in the system now, and with players around him, that really complement him very well, making a comparison to where he came out of previously. So, folks, I’ll just simply say, if it looks like a duck and quacks like one, it’s probably a problem.
Michelle Yu
Yeah.
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Jeff Altman
So how did you go about trying to figure it out? What approach did you take? What kind of steps that you go through?
Michelle Yu
For me, I ended up having to, well, I had a really bad period of burnout, first of all, and I think that was my body actually giving me the physical signs that what I was doing was not sustainable anymore. I was working, maybe 80 to 100 hours a week, I was traveling a lot from West Coast to East Coast and internationally. And I think my body just gave me the sign like you’re done. You have to do something different. So that led me to taking a medical leave of absence, which is very unique. It’s a unique situation, because when I was an HR, I would administer these leaves of absence for other employees. And for me to actually go through it myself was like, a completely different game. But that’s really what was what led me to thinking, “Okay, well, what I was doing wasn’t sustainable. And what do I want to do? What what would an ideal career look like for me?”
Jeff Altman
And how did you figure that out?
Michelle Yu
I think, okay, so, as a coach, I think everybody knows secretly deep down inside what they want to do, but it’s that suppression of, of what we want to do that I had to confront, because I always knew I wanted to be a coach, I’ve actually been saying that I wanted to be a coach for I don’t know, maybe five years prior. And that was why I wanted to get an MBA was to be able to help others advise others coach others through certain situations, especially in the corporate world. So when I finally took that leave of absence and did a lot of internal work, I realized I want to go back and help people. And that was what led me to launching my coaching business.
Jeff Altman
So when you work with the people that you coach, helping them with transitions, we’re off of you right now. Because you have a certain degree of self awareness and time to do some work from taking that leave. But not everyone does.
Michelle Yu
Right.
Jeff Altman
So with that, how would someone begin the process of looking at transitioning? Not everyone has that “Deep down, I know what I really want to do,” that you have. How do you take them through the process?
Michelle Yu
Well, there has to be a certain amount of awareness and self-awareness to . . . but they need to go through themselves. So, whether that day . . . whether they do that alone, or they do that with a certain help, like getting a career coach or working with a counselor, that’s the first step in building the awareness. Like what is on the table? What are you even considering? What are the options that you’ve always wanted to do, but you’re too afraid to do and ask them some of these deeper seeded hard questions, allows them to just see what comes up and see where that might take you next.
Jeff Altman
And thus, asking hard questions like, what? What kind of questions can someone ask themselves? To kind of sort it out?
Michelle Yu
Yeah. Um, one question would be, like, “If you only had a year to live, how would you want to spend your life?” That’s a beautiful question that puts a lot of things into perspective. And other questions like, “What would you do if you’re completely unafraid and if money weren’t an issue?”
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Jeff Altman
And, you know, the classic one is, “I you knew you wouldn’t fail? What would you try to do?” And I heard recently a flip on that is, “If you knew you would fail, what would you do?” Because the statistical probability is a lot of folks are gonna fail. So, however you do it, folks, you’ve got to start going through the process. Now, one of the advantages of hiring a coach, like Michelle or I, is the notion of that we’re gonna hold your feet to the fire. And you can’t just simply go, “Okay, I think I’ll skip it for two weeks, and then go about forgetting it.”
Michelle Yu
Mm hmm. Yep, exactly. We got to the core of what it is they want to do and we explore that, and we explore all the reasons why they are telling themselves “No,’ and why they think it can’t work and, yeah, like you said, hold the feet to the fire.
Jeff Altman
It’s the lies that people tell themselves, to keep them small. And thus, a coach, Michelle, I, someone else, whomever, a wife, husband, partner, who’s a tough individual, who can have those challenging conversations with you that you don’t feel like you can push back on them. Because often, with people who are too close, they’ll back off when you push back, right? So the notion that it’s someone that you can really work with, who will keep you focused on what the prize is for you that I think becomes so important. So here, we are just trying to figure it out. And let’s say you know, people develop a list of possibilities, because they just don’t know, even though on some level they do. So how do they kind of take this . . . it’s like executive search. You have a long list, and you want to create a shortlist from the long list. How do they start figuring it out?
Michelle Yu
It’s baby steps, it’s not rushing and trying to get to the solution all at once. But taking a small step in the right direction. And going from there, I think that’s really where people get this analysis paralysis. Like “there’s just so much out there. And I don’t even know where to start.” But it’s starting off really with what do you know, and then untangling it down and creating small little action steps like each week, that allow you to get a little bit more clarity a little bit closer to what you’re looking for.
Jeff Altman
So I’m going to use it a ridiculous example. We’ve got a long list than amongst the three items. They are our salesperson, engineer, and artist, which is the second three disparate kind of personality types if we were looking at stereotypically. How does someone sort out all these broad possibilities and start narrowing? How do you figure out that maybe you shouldn’t be an artist, or an engineer or a salesperson?
Michelle Yu
Yeah, we would start with one. So we could start with the engineering piece, and then just ask questions like, “Okay, what is appealing about the engineering piece for you? Like, what stands out? Why are you interested in that? Where Where does that interest come from? Is it from yourself? Is it from your parents, their friends, your colleagues?” And then you would do the same kind of exercise. Salesperson. “Why are you interested?” And then understanding where their personality fits with each of these as well helps us, you know, helps if they’re completely a creative person, or if they’re like, they don’t like interacting with people, then that gives them a little bit more perspective, to see well, you know, in a sales role, you’ll need to be interacting with a lot of people or is that something that you’re comfortable with or in an engineering role, you have to be strong and love the numbers? You know, is that something that you’re good at? So being able to ask some of these questions and match it to some of these options that they’re considering?
Jeff Altman
And, excuse me as we start to narrow down the long list into a short list and a coach, you, whomever takes them through the process and they start to understand what it is about the type of work that has made them curious. I tend to think of the “I’m curious” as I’ve got an idea of what it’s like. I really don’t know.” Is that what you find?
Michelle Yu
Yeah, definitely. And, and that’s why we emphasize a lot on doing informational interviews, just speaking to people who are in those professions to really know and get a deeper idea of what it would be like, as, as a way to fact find and see. “Does that align with what they really want to do?” So there’s this, you know, inner work that they have to do of asking themselves these questions, but there’s also a little bit of external interview and research work that needs to be done, as well. And in talking to people,
Jeff Altman
it’s just what what do you do? what’s a typical day? Like? Yeah, what gets you stuck? What do you hate about what you’re doing? What do you love about what you’re doing? What’s in the middle? Right? Is that how you take them through?
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Michelle Yu
Yeah, if they were to go out and speak to people regarding, let’s say, the engineering position, then it’s getting curious and learning more about Yeah, what is your day to day look like? Absolutely. And then seeing if that vision aligns and sounds interesting, or, or completely repulsive to what they want to do.
Jeff Altman
And I think in terms of following the artists, the one here for, because that’s the most disparate from the three that I gave, I think in terms of how do you get ahead? How do you move forward? As an engineer, a sales person, an artist, what is the business of art look like? Because it’s not just simply sitting in a canvas, or whatever medium you’re working with, is a part that you want to sell. You want to show, you know, the things that allow other people to discover about you that should need to explore. So we’re learning about the profession? And these informational discussions, right?
Michelle Yu
Yep, learning about the profession, about the industry about where it could lead you and all the possibilities in between when you’re doing that research, because, you know, let’s say, you want to be an artist, or you want to be a writer. Okay, where can that open up? Where does that lead you? And what rules are tangential to that, to that profession. And that requires a little bit of research as coaches. I mean, I’ll put it out there. I don’t know every single occupation out there. But I know the general format of how to go around it and how to actually explore and the fundamentals to move forward. So but that’s on the client to be able to start doing that work once they know when they can mirror that process to any of these roles that sound interesting to them. And, folks,
Jeff Altman
if you’ve ever heard stories about how to someone become a successful real estate investor, they always say, you don’t have to figure it out yourself. You talk to someone else and do what they did. You know, it’s a cookie cutter to this in real estate development. And the same thing into a new career transition. He talked to people who’ve done this before you learn what it took for them to get to where they are, what the hurdles were, the pleasures, the mediocrity, because not everything is the extreme. There’s a lot of grunt stuff that happens, where your deficiencies are from a skills perspective, or a knowledge perspective. Maybe rectifying some of those, like go to school class, what have you. And then rolling out. Yeah, we got a long list, we got to rule things out. So is that how you manage people in this process, you help them eliminate choices. So you get down to a narrow group? Absolutely.
Michelle Yu
My, my framework is awareness, approach and actualization. So what we talked about is that awareness piece of understanding– where do you want to be one from the table, and then you’re talking about the approach piece of how do you actually start moving forward, and that’s the strategy behind it. But you have to know where you want to go first to be able to start then putting in baby steps approaches. Otherwise, it’ll just be spinning, spinning everywhere. And then that third piece is, you know, holding your feet to the fire, like you said, the actualization piece, which happens over time and it’s not something that, you know, we’re, it’s, it’s not, it’s not going to be a quick, a quick “Alright, in a week, I figured it out.” It’s going to take time. It’s going to take . . . it takes patience, it takes a lot of diligence to be able to get to where you want to be.
Jeff Altman
And, folks, if you’re listening to this as a podcast, I just I want to say I was laughing at the idea of figuring it out in a week. Because if you’re doing the work, you’re really getting in and talking to multiple people over a period of time to hear their stories, because one person’s story is going to be different than another person’s story. And then, you’re looking, you know . . . and when I coach people through a transition, I tell them, you have to look for common stories, common threads, common themes, because you may be talking to the outlier–The person whose experiences are very different. “I went to college, and suddenly I was hired as a VP.” Very, very unlikely. So, it’s how do you work your way up the system in order to advance that you just ought to hear about beforehand, because surprises are rarely good, right? Better to know in advance what the process is going to be like once you’re in there. As another coach said so well, a lot of people operate with the “feed me grapes approach to career change.” That is, you’re sitting back on the banquette and the coaches dropping grapes into your mouth, as though you can’t do the . . . you have no work to do. You have work to do, folks, and we’re going to make you work. Because no one can tell you the answers. Because no one can give you the right questions for you.
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Michelle Yu
Yes, absolutely. I remember our first conversation where you’re telling me, when you’re a recruiter, people will tell what ask you “What should I do with my life,” and that’s the exact same thing. It’s like, we’re not the experts in your life. You are the expert, or the client is the expert in their life. And, and so many times are like, “I just want someone to tell me what to do.” But in this case of your career, where it’s this long term game that you’re playing, it has . . . the work has to be done from their end. So that’s such a beautiful analogy of this great, grape, feeding them grapes. But we can feed, you know, insights and buckets of information for them to consider. But they have to actually be the ones doing the work.
Jeff Altman
It’s your choice and your life. And thus, you have to be aware of what’s most important to you in the next career, organization, job. What would you need to see or hear to believe it’s a good choice for you? And once you have the answers to that, you can start breaking down some of these different alternatives, and go exploring. Now, let’s say we’ve got it narrowed down to three or four different things. I’m coming back to that question I asked earlier. So, we got to narrow things down now because if a dog chases rabbits, I know they can catch the rabbit but hen they chase four rabbits, I also know they can’t catch any. So how does someone go about figuring it out down to a single role?
Michelle Yu
Yes, that’s a that’s a really great question. And you know, as coaches, we help to hold that accountability and coach around, what is it they’re actually really afraid of? Because, like I said, I believe that people, once they narrow it down, and they’re gravitating towards a certain direction, now it’s the mindset around, what else can they shift to make that a possibility? Because they may be saying, okay, it’s impossible for me to be an artist, I can’t do that. And the coaches world is to be able to open up those possibilities and show them how it is possible and give them little baby steps to seeing those possibilities. I don’t know if that answered your question or not.
Jeff Altman
To startt. I’m gonna come back to you as an example. So you knew deep inside, coaching was really the right thing for you. But there were other voices, I’m sure that were talking to trying to distract you. “Come! Come to me! COME TO ME! I think you should be a poet,” or whatever the other alternatives. Did you silence the voices. Did you put them through the same process? I just want to see if you took your own medicine.
Michelle Yu
Yeah, I totally did. So after I left my corporate role, I was in a transition from moving from the Bay Area to LA and after leaving my leaving my last role, I was back on the job market. I was interviewing with different companies thinking I was going to go back into HR and not really sure where this whole coaching thing fit in. So for me, on one of those drives down from Northern to Southern California, I was actively interviewing, I was launching my coaching business, my energy was just all directed into different places. And then I just heard this calling telling me not . . . to pull myself out of the interviewing stages, I had already turned down an offer That was the first that was the first like, “Whoa, what am I doing,” that was the first like wake up call. And then the second one was “Pull yourself out of the interviewing process; you’re just getting really distracted at this point and actually do what you love.” So, at that point, I called my recruiters I pulled myself out. And then I’m like, “Okay, I’m all in now. So I really surrendered to that, and learned to really read into my intuition and tune into my own inner knowledge and inner knowing. But yeah, there was a time where I was thinking about going back into the world, and, and not really sure. And that would have just put my, you know, put my business and put my dreams on pause, and I decided to try something different.
Jeff Altman
And thank you for explaining that. Because I know why I went through something similar in my transition from recruiting, to coaching, my version of coaching is broader than just simply job search, career transition, as I’m sure it’s the case with you. At times, you do leadership coaching, executive coaching, because you work with people who you help, and they want to continue the relationship. So they come for advice, and you help them develop and grow that way, too. So, as you began this, eventually, you had the moment of truth with the offer. Now, I think of, for so many people, I want to hit pause for a second, what were you going to say there?
Michelle Yu
Yeah, that was that was so right, the moment of truth with the offer. And that was like, Okay, do I take this offer or do I actually go after this business that I want to build? And I knew that if I were to turn it down, then I had no other fallback? And this is granted, this isn’t the middle of COVID? Like, do I want an offer? Do I want something stable? Or do I want to go the riskier route, and I chose the riskier route to start my own business. So it’s, yeah, it’s definitely been a fun journey.
Jeff Altman
And for some people, I’m hearing about, “Gee, I’m giving up the security of a job of a paycheck, and going out on my own,” which is what you and I have both done. “And, you know, I I don’t think I could go quite that far. At this time, I think I need a different kind of job. And, you know, I’m gonna go back to being a beginner, and they want me to make how much? Oh, I don’t know, if I can do that! That seems like a pretty good haircut.” You know, how does someone navigate the financials of a transition?
Michelle Yu
Mm hmm. Everyone’s situation is going to look completely different. So, as a coach, again, we’re not invested in. . . like, my, my, my agenda is not . . . . my purpose isn’t to push an agenda. And it has to work for whatever the client is. So some people I see they start picking up and working on a side business on the side, to really make that transition. But again, it’s being able to put some of those stepping stones into place of where they actually want to go down the line. But yeah, I completely agree that everyone’s financial situation looks different, and they have to do what’s wise for them. And sometimes that means staying in their job and, and figuring out what that path is. And if it’s the job that’s really taking up a lot of energy, then we work on coaching mechanisms, or coping mechanisms to be able to like to manage it better manage . . . the stress, better manage, the situations better.
Jeff Altman
And for the married individual who’s got the wife, husband, partner, the kids the mortgage, the American Dream slash nightmare. I say it that way. Because for so many people, they feel trapped in this scenario. I know I never coach out of the relationship, I try and coach the financials, and how to do time management to explore the new option and do something on the side that’s reasonable. You tend to do something similar. I know you never coach out of a relationship.
Michelle Yu
No, yeah, it’s really based on what the client needs. And I meet them where they are. Most of my demographic are more younger families, or like recently married couples, and they’re, they’re trying to figure out where they want to go next. So that’s my demographic as opposed to . . .
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Jeff Altman
older, I tend to get an older clientele. After all folks, look at this face. It’s who I tend to attract or someone who’s looking for a father figure. So you meet them where they are, and thus have you help them sort this through? Do you bring the other spouse or the other partner into the equation into a meeting or do you just work with one individual and have them have the conversation?
Michelle Yu
I work with a one individual and seeing what is what they need. To or where they need to be coached on, I haven’t gotten to the place where they bring in their, their significant other, I’m open to that. If they . . . if the client feels like that’s needed inhelping to facilitate those conversations, but it’s being able to coach the person in the room, and having them take responsibility for what actions they need. So I haven’t brought in, you know, spouses or partners yet,
Jeff Altman
I tend not to either, although I’ve known other coaches that have. I know, in search, sometimes I would talk to the, to the partner, so that this way, they would hear directly, because the person I was working with as a candidate, sometimes tells, shall we say, untruths, blames it on me. And they’re just trying to finesse the situation, because they’re afraid of what’s going to be said. So it just becomes easier, or was easier at that time. As a coach, not ideal, unless there’s something going on in the relationship that’s problematic, and it becomes a facilitated conversation. But that that almost brings me back to my therapy days, where you’re in couples counseling, couples therapy. Often the presenting problem was the child. But it was really in the relationship between the parents and the family system. So the child was the problem, but it was really the parents and how they worked with one another. This is fun. What should we talk about now? What’s the next thing we should cover as part of this process?
Michelle Yu
So we already talked about figuring out the awareness, putting together an approach of where to go next, I think we should talk about what it means to hold your feet to the fire.
Jeff Altman
So tell me, what does it mean to hold your feet to the fire?
Michelle Yu
So it’s having a long term vision of what you want to create. And I think that’s what makes coaching so magical is because we’re helping people create that life that they really want. And like, implanting in their mind what’s possible, because . . . and that doesn’t happen, you know, in the court, and may not even happen in the course of our coaching relationship. But as long as they know what that long term vision looks like, then the client is accountable, or they know where to move to next, as long as it’s, it’s towards that target. So, I don’t know, if you had certain strategies that you share with your team or your clients, how they can move closer to actualizing their goals.
Jeff Altman
Sometimes it’s, you know, they’re not ready. And it could be a skills deficiency, for which education is important and what I sometimes it will encourage someone to do is to get proximate to the profession, get near it, get in contact with people who are doing the work in it, to be of service to them, and then really work like a maniac so that you get noticed, and thus have the opportunity to get pulled into the role because people see your commitment. That’s one approach to doing it. And that you’re not ready yet. There’s something missing. And you can’t afford school right now. And yeah, you could take classes on a site like Udemy–u-d-e-,-y.com, that can help you. But fundamentally, the goal may be to get right next to it. I find that helpful. Have you done something similar with people you work with?
Michelle Yu
They figure out . . . a lot of my clients are in that process to like, where to go next. And they sign up for courses and they sign up for different programs, which is great in furthering their mission. Actually, a couple of my clients are more thinking going the route of entrepreneurship or self employment. So, so they’re working their full time jobs, are building up these skills through these classes, and they’re starting to put in action places or put certain things in place so that they can reach their goal of launching their business or going into self employment. Again, they’re all strategies and all different steps and every one situation will look different. But that tends to be my, my general clientele is they’re working full time right now. And they’re figuring out where where to next.
Jeff Altman
Are they doing, you know, fundraising at this point? Business plans? What process are they engaged in for going into entrepreneurship?
Michelle Yu
They’re exploring and crafting what that vision looks like. I think that’s the first that’s really the first piece is like if you’re going to be thinking about your business or launching a business. What do you want that to look like? What do you want your lifestyle to look like? And putting together a plan a future plan of what that transition period could look like like. When do you want to transition out of your nine to five? And it could be a year from now, it could be two years from now, whatever that timeline looks like?
Jeff Altman
Are you having them assemble a Council of Advisors to help them? Are you helping them assemble in effect the management team around themselves to work with that? Tell us a little bit more about that piece of it?
Michelle Yu
Yes, absolutely. One of the big things that I’ve realized is from those who have been so accustomed to working in their nine to five, moving into entrepreneurship is a completely different mindset shift, right? And the first piece is having community, whether when you want to call it advisors, or counsel or consultants, it’s having a community of people who are going to be supportive and understanding your journey. So finding, where are those pockets of people hang out and starting to surround yourself and have those conversations is really one of the first steps is like know where your tribe is going to hang out and start being extra vigilant of how other businesses in that space are being run.
Jeff Altman
With that learning, you start to discover what you need, what assets you need to bring on, because assets are not just simply financial. They’re human capital, right?
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Michelle Yu
Mm hmm. Not everyone’s gonna want to build a business that hires like, you know, 10s and 20s, or hundreds of people. Some people just want to be in it in business for themselves. It could be a solopreneur, or have a small brick and mortar. So everyone’s viewpoint of what self employment or entrepreneurship will look different to them. And I really like to honor that. Like meeting them where they are and helping them to create what is the vision of their business that they want it to look like?
Jeff Altman
Great. I’m having a lot of fun, but I want to be respectful of your time. How can people find out more about the work that you do, hire you, all sorts of good stuff happening?
Michelle Yu
Yeah, they can go to my website, www dot MichelleKYu.com. And there’s more information there. I’m also on Instagram and Facebook. My handle is MKYucoaching. So you can find tidbits of inspiration and just different mindset perspectives. And yeah, insight on my social media handles,
Jeff Altman
Super! And, folks, we’ll be back soon with more. I’m Jeff Altman, The Big Game Hunter, visit my website, TheBigGameHunter.us. Go to the site; go exploring, there’s just a lot there to help you located in the blog. If you’re interested in one on one coaching, you can schedule time for a free discovery call or schedule time for coaching. You can even ask me questions through the site. I charge for all of this, obviously. But in terms of the q&a, very inexpensive. also want to remind you I’ve got a great class on Udemy called The Ultimate Job Interview Framework. It’s also available as a paperback through Amazon or Kindle book. It will help you interview like no one else. Because frankly, one of the complaints that people who hire say everyone kind of looks alike, and you want to be able to stand out. So how can you stand out in a good way. Again, class is The Ultimate Job Interview Framework. Lastly, connect with me on LinkedIn– linkedin.com/in/The Big GameHunter. Hope you have a terrific day and most importantly, be great. Take care
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ABOUT JEFF ALTMAN, THE BIG GAME HUNTER
Jeff Altman, The Big Game Hunter is a coach who worked as a recruiter for what seems like one hundred years. His work involves career coaching, as well as executive job search coaching, job coaching, and interview coaching. He is the host of “No BS Job Search Advice Radio,” the #1 podcast in iTunes for job search with over 2300 episodes.
Are you interested in 1:1 coaching, interview coaching, advice about networking more effectively, how to negotiate your offer or leadership coaching? Schedule a discovery call at my website, www.TheBigGameHunter.us
Learn to interview like a pro. “The Ultimate Job Interview Framework” www.TheBigGameHunter.us/interviews Kindle and print versions are available on Amazon.
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Connect with me on LinkedIn www.linkedin.com/in/thebiggamehunter Mention you listen to the podcast or watch my YouTube channel.
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