Branding. Brandjacking. Build Your Reputation
By Jeff Altman, The Big Game Hunter
I interviewed a branding expert, Quentin Langley, the author of a book called “BrandJack” and in the interview, he mentioned a great technique for students to deploy in order to create a brand for themselves by the time they graduate. Put it into practice. It will help.
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Jeff Altman
So my guest today is Quentin Langley, who teaches at the Jay and Patty Baker School of Business at the Fashion Institute of Technology and at the Gabelli School of Business at Fordham University. He’s taught at business in media schools in the US and the UK. His latest book, business and the culture of ethics was published in September 2020, he’s also the author of brand Jack, how your reputation is at risk from brand pirates and what to do about it. Quentin, thanks for making time today.
Speaker 1
Great to Great to see you again. Good to see you again too. Jeff, thanks. So are you a guy
Jeff Altman
who’s just been teaching, or did you actually work in industry? Did you read three books and suddenly call yourself a professor?
Quentin Langley
No, I actually did work in industry, mostly in journalism and in public relations consultancy. I did some in house work in PR as well. I was at the Global Media Relations team through shell international for a while, and I was global head of PR for Knight Frank real estate agency, which trades as Newmark Knight Frank in the US. Gotcha.
Jeff Altman
So let’s talk about branding today. Folks, if you were afraid we were going to do an ethics conversation not going to happen. We’re talking branding tonight. And and for those of you who roll your eyes up when you think about branding and go, oh god, why do I need to know about that? It’s the most important things you need to know. And why is that? Why is branding important for a person in their career?
Quentin Langley
Well, brand is the word that marketing people use for what everyone else calls reputation. So when an organization says, Oh, we’re going to get a new brand, everybody thinks, oh, that means a new logo. But actually it’s much bigger than that, or ought to be, if they’re doing it properly. Now, if someone says to you, I’m going to get a new reputation, the first thing he says, ooh, really. How are you going to do that? Are you going to change the way you treat people and then start talking about it, or you just going to start telling people different things about yourself? Because if you’re if it’s all about what you say and not about what you do, then it’s not going to be very successful,
Jeff Altman
and it’s so interesting you talk about say versus do. I interviewed someone recently who used the metaphor of show don’t tell as part of how someone should talk about themselves. And you’re right. You can’t just announce one day. Ta, da, I have a new logo, a new label on me. I am different. Yeah, it tends to follow you around, right?
Quentin Langley
I explained that to my students to think in terms of the dating market that I believe it’s been known on Tinder for some people to exaggerate about themselves, really or even completely fabricate stuff. And I say to my students, let’s say most my students are women, young women. Let’s say you’re dating a guy called Dave, and you dump him because you don’t like him. And he comes back a week later and says, It’s okay. I’ve changed my name to Charles. Now, will you go out with me? You’re gonna say no, because that wasn’t the point. There’s a whole range of other things that go into your reputation. It’s not just your name. So yeah, the do versus say is is very important.
Jeff Altman
I think, in terms of how one develops reputation, and with that, how someone becomes known for their reputation. Because I think people operate within a small universe most of the time for who knows about them, and thus how they become known, is a big part of the branding, reputation building and all that sort of stuff. But let’s start with the baby steps. And we’re going to start with your students who are whatever age they are you’re teaching at graduate school, so let’s assume they’re in their 20s and they have the returnees who are coming back to try and get the degree. So let’s think in terms of the people in their 20s first, and how they start building a reputation. Okay, well,
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Quentin Langley
it has changed dramatically since the days when you and I were at that age. Used to be the case that most people got jobs through sending off applications. And indeed, you know, when my father was a young man, you applied to one organization, and you probably stuck with that same organization for the rest of your life. You moved up. My father did. He was. In the civil service, he got to a very senior level, but he was with the same organization his whole career. That world has gone and now it is about building a reputation and starting when you’re I actually teach at fit. I teach with students who are freshmen. So I’m saying, well, you’re going to spend four years writing a blog, and I set them an assignment. In their first semester, I set an assignment they write one blog entry for me that I grade, but I say, I want you to write a blog entry every week. I’m not going to grade them all, but spend the next four years writing a blog. Take the most interesting thing you learned at school that week. Write about and think, how would that apply in the sort of job that I did? I said, you know, my teacher the fashion school, I used to work at Shell so maybe I give them a case study about crisis that shell faced in Nigeria in the 1990s and I, my challenge to them is go away and think about how would that something similar affect a fashion business? Because fashion businesses often manufacture in developing countries. They come under fire for their environmental record, or for the way in which people are treated in the factories. How would you handle that issue for a fashion business? Write about that, and then when you’re looking for a job, then people are going to find on LinkedIn or on your blog or various other social media platforms that you’re using, they’ll find that you’ve been thinking about these issues for four years. I said, Well, on that basis, you’re never going to apply for a job. People will be applying to you. People will be saying, Yeah, this is the person I want to recruit into my business. I tell them, think about it. In marketing, you always supposed to think about your target audience. If you’re looking for a job, your target audience is people who have got problems and want someone to solve the problems. So if you’ve spent four years writing about those sort of problems and how you would solve them, then you’re the sort of person that the business is going to hire. And one of the things
Jeff Altman
I’m going to interrupt and say, folks, understand what he’s talking about here, is having firms reach out to you instead of you always being the supplicant who’s reaching out hat in hand begging that they interview you. And I saw a statistic today, or I was reminder of a statistic today from 2018 that said, when firms hire it takes 128 job applications for them to hire one person, versus when a person’s referred or they source them themselves. It’s eight, yeah, eight. You want to be the ones that they know about in advance, that they want to reach to, that they can find easily, so that in this way, you’re cutting the line. It’s like one of the metaphor that I use is there’s a pond, and there’s a lot of fish, and there’s a hook thrown into the water, and there’s 128 fish trying to leap onto the hook once you rather be in the pond where they throw the hook out, and there’s only eight of you competing.
Quentin Langley
Yep, that’s the point. I mean, it’s actually the same in all business relationships. It’s not just about jobs. I read some fascinating stats on insurance industry defaults, and they did a sort of big data analysis of applications for what was it? It was for loan repayments, actually not insurance industry for loan repayment, who defaults on their loan repayment, and the words that turn up in an application for loan that predict default are please, thank you and God, people who refer To those things in their loan applications are very likely to default, because those are people certainly the please and the Thank you. Are people who think they’re asking for a favor, as opposed to entering a business relationship, which is good for both sides and God, I’m not entirely sure, but I suspect this is when somebody, you know, they’re asked, what’s your plan for repaying? And they say, Well, God, will find a way. And you think, Well, yeah, that’s, that’s not, I’m sure you’re very sincere about wanting to repay, but that’s not a plan, and I’m not going to lend you any money if that’s, if that’s your plan for repaying. Um. And you know, and it’s the same when you’re you’re applying for a job, and I love that word supplicant that you use when you’re applying for a job, two people are negotiating a business relationship that should work for both sides. It’s not one person who’s asking for a favor from someone else, and that is that this is where everybody goes wrong. When you apply for jobs, so many people will send off an application letter, 12 sentences, nine of them beginning with i, and I’m getting this when I was recruiting a team at night, Frank, I’m getting these letters. Why are you telling me your life story? I don’t care about this. I’ve got a problem. Tell me how you’re going to solve my problem. That’s what it’s about. Focus on what your target audience is interested in hearing. And if you’re applying for jobs in the fashion industry, then show people that you have been thinking about what the problems in the fashion industry are and how they can be solved. And that’s, that’s the whole deal. That’s, that’s why someone will hire you, because you can solve their problem.
Jeff Altman
For the 20 something, you know, the freshman, sophomore, junior, senior, they’re in an early stage developmentally, but I think of the person who’s a couple of years in and beyond, they have the temptation to also say, Yes, I I can do this for you, because I’ve done it over here. And they also want to say, let me tell you are my credentials, which is all about themselves,
Quentin Langley
yep, and that’s Yeah, I think it’s all about storytelling. Show that you can solve problems, but by the time you get to an interview, it’s no longer about can you do the job? Because I’m not an idiot. If I’m hiring all the people I’m interviewing, can do the job, it’s whether or not you’re going to fit in. The three questions when you’re hiring that you’re asking yourself about potential hires, it’s can she do the job? Will she do the job? Will she fit in? By the time you get to interview, the recruiter has eliminated all the people who don’t know how to do the job. They’re thinking, is this person going to fit in? By that point, it’s about connecting, and this is where I think branding and connecting has been changing. Within the past few months, I used to give people workshops on how to shake hands, and now people don’t shake hands anymore because of the pandemic, but we’ve all been there with the person who you think you shake hands with them, and you think they’ve handed you a wet fish, and then the other people that crush your hand, you think, why are you doing this? What did I do to you? And you’ve got to find that the thing that works and frankly, the thing that works for one person is not the thing that works for someone else. If you’re shaking hands with a 95 pound woman, it’s not the same handshake as you should do for a 250 pound guy, so you know, but that you know, that’s handshake that’s all gone. What are we doing instead? How are we going to address things like eye contact, smile when I use your name, Jeff, that’s how I make a connection.
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Jeff Altman
To be clear, we don’t do the repeated mention of the name in every sentence or every third sentence, because suddenly, as I was listening to a podcast with Reid Hoffman, who’s the founder of LinkedIn, so that was an old Dale Carnegie trick that people were taught the sweetest word that a person can hear is the sound of their own name. And unfortunately, people take that too literally, so it becomes every sentence becomes, well, Quentin, I really believe that. And Quentin, you know what? I think,
Quentin Langley
yes, you’ve got to be that was the second time I’ve used your name in this interview. I think I’m getting the balance about right. It’s every 10 minutes. Yeah, that seems reasonable. And then you can there’s a wonderful strip cartoon that runs in The Daily Telegraph in the UK called Alex, about a guy who works in the financial markets, and they it’s always the same joke that they seem to be saying one thing, and then the final panel, you reveal what they’re actually saying, something else they were talking about body language one day, and said, did you notice that person stands in the middle of the room? Very firm? Handshake always makes eye contact. And the final panel is it, yeah, obviously the sort of wimp who’s been on a body language course. Let’s ignore him. And people can go over the top, where they’re using your name all the time, and every sentence, they say, yep, yep, yep, yep, yep, beginning to sound like a small dog?
Jeff Altman
Yes, and I want to leap in and say, we’ve been talking so far. You use the example with the students of a weekly blog post where someone talks or writes about something relevant to the career that they want to do, and that’s the perfect student. Answer is, build up a body of work where people can discover you. Now, you can do this on your own website. You can do this on LinkedIn, of course, whatever makes it easily discoverable for someone. What else can people do? And we can stick with students. We can go to more experienced professionals to start cultivating a brand for themselves so that they’re discoverable and they’re able to and this is one of my favorite scenarios in talking about job search, cut the line and move to the front instead of always being Hi. See me in the back. Why don’t you pick me?
Quentin Langley
I think it’s about networking. As you get more senior, I know this is a topic you’ve talked about a lot networking, particularly through LinkedIn, where you can obviously target people by the sort of job that they’re presently doing. So again, remember, you’re not asking for a favor. You are not the supplicant when you write to people and say, I want to connect with you, you’re offering them something because you’re offering them the chance to connect with you as well. So again, it should be a more equal conversation. But I do find that if you approach people and say, I’d like to ask your advice about something, most people are flattered, and most people agree to a conversation. It may be only a five or 15 minute conversation, but most people, about three quarters, agree to a conversation. Another thing you can do is become involved in professional societies. I’m presently the chair of the Global Affairs Committee of the Public Relations Society of America. I did a similar job within the Chartered Institute of Public Relations in London beforehand, and I found, once I had that title, that the number of people who agreed to a networking meeting with me rose from about three quarters of the people that I approached to about 90 or 95% because once you’ve got, you’ve Got that sign off line and say, I would like a meeting with you to pick your brains. People think, Oh, this is, this is a knowledgeable and senior person who respects me enough to ask for my advice. They feel flattered and they agree. And of course, they recognize there’s something in it for them to the you know, I I may be looking for some work at the moment, but in the couple of years time, maybe I’ll be in a position to hire and they’ll be the one who’s looking for work. So, you know, people will agree to the meetings on that basis.
Jeff Altman
I had one person I coached who worked in a specific area of risk, and he had been consulting for some time, and wasn’t sure if he wanted to continue in consulting or go into industry. And there were a couple of other challenges with his background as well. So we adopted the strategy of, I’m writing the book, and I’d like to talk with you and interview you for the book. And thus people were flattered to be approached, and he was able to get an introduction to someone who is overseas, runs a professional trade group did the interview. They, in turn, interviewed him with someone else who, with whom he’s collaborating on another book, and that person has a phenomenal brand in that sector. It’s going to be his reputational calling card going forward. So the brand for you folks, it can be about what you write, where you’re interviewed. So for example, Quentin is being interviewed for YouTube and for the podcast, and he’s going to be seen in association with the number one podcast in Apple podcast for job search and a YouTube channel. I don’t think we’ve had a ranking in a couple of years. Years, but fundamentally a visible place where people can discover more about him and how he thinks. So, if they’re looking for someone, they find him the and then do a Google search. He’s going to come up in multiple places.
Quentin Langley
Yeah, especially, I’ve got an unusual name, so I I believe there was one other Quentin Langley in the United States, but if you do a Google on my name, I get everything on the front page. So I definitely win on that name. Yeah. I mean, somebody once told me that I was the only person that ever Googled other than Barack Obama, where absolutely everything they found was actually about me and not about someone else who got the same name. So yeah, so an unusual name helps, but I agree, asking people about a book or a blog or a podcast you want to interview them for for those again, people are flattered. People want to connect, and it’s something that works for both sides. And everyone recognizes that. Again, there’s no supplication involved. This is two people doing something that is interesting and is useful for both of them, and same as any business deal,
Jeff Altman
what else can someone do to create the brand for themselves, other than a unique name writing podcast, podcast now my name Jeff Altman, there’s a comedian by The same name, who’s appeared on TV in the US many, many times. So I’ve got one or two listings on page. One, he’s got most, most of the rest.
Quentin Langley
What is always the problem with names when, when we were young, nobody gave us names, taking into account how Google able they would be. I mean, I’ve got a friend called Tony Brown. He’s finished. There’s no way he makes page one of good. Maybe that’s an advantage. I mean, if you want to remain anonymous, but if you if you want to be found, then then that that name is never going to work. So an unusual name or associating yourself with an unusual word, like brand Jack, I didn’t invent that word. I heard someone use it at a conference. I thought, brand Jack, that’s a great idea. I should write a book on that. I should become the brand Jack guy. So I did. So if you, if your name is not very googleable, associate yourself with a word that is very googleable and tells people about what it is that you’re doing. So that’s that’s one way of being discovered.
Jeff Altman
So it becomes the expert around the term, yeah. So I’m going to go into brand jack in just a moment. Let’s just do it right now. So for someone who is fearful of their brand being being brand jacked, how do you avoid that? Well, actually, let me first define Have you define it?
Quentin Langley
Well, it’s when you lose control of the particularly the social media conversation around your brand. And that can happen for a whole range of reasons. About 75% of crises start internally to the organization. About a quarter of them are a member of staff makes an error, and about 50% of them are management, corporate leadership makes an error. But some of them come from the outside, and that can be very if you become if you come under fire from an organization like Greenpeace, well, they’ve got a huge following on social media, and they start sharing stuff that’s negative about you. It’s going to go all over the place, and there’s not much you can do to prevent that. You need to engage with your various publics. You need it does tie in with the ethics. It is about establishing a reputation for doing the right thing. You have to be believable when you’re talking about the things that you’re doing. So there are a rate. I mean, when I was at Shell we were starting to rethink what we wanted, various groups, various publics, to think about the brand, and we knew we were never going to get Greenpeace, Sierra Club or Friends of the Earth to say, Yay, shell. Great, great organization that the target that we had. With environmentalists was to say, well, if someone’s going to do it, I suppose it’s better that it would be shell that’s about as far as you can reasonably hope to get with an organization that is inherently critical of your entire business model.
Jeff Altman
And I’ll go an extra step from an episode when I was still doing search, your employer carries a brand that can infect you. That’s absolutely right, yes. And thus I think of again from when I was in search, the story of Bernie Madoff, which was an executive suite issue. But if you were a technology guy working for that firm, you were unemployable, tainted by that even though you had nothing to do with it.
Quentin Langley
Oddly enough, my background working in crisis and working in public relations, sometimes the PR people can emerge from a crisis with an enhanced reputation, if you were the PR person working at Enron towards the end, then people want to hear from you. What did you learn from that? How did that work out? What were you doing to deal with that? That that issue, but you’re absolutely right. Even if you say you’re the IT person, it rubs off on you, and unless you’ve got some insight, you can offer a conference or write a book that shows something about what went wrong and how it went wrong, you’re probably going to be damaged, and that’s why organizations target having a good relationship with potential hires as well. I mean, the your staff are an important public for you as an organization, but some of the people who might work for you, one of the reasons to be in trade and professional publications is often not that your clients read the these magazines. It’s that the people who work for your competitors and who might be tempted to come over and work for you read these publications. So if you if you have a reputation, and this night Frank in the real estate agency market, we were trying to build a reputation with the trade publications as being the best place to work, because then we could attract the best talent. If all the people who work for your competitors think, you know, I really like to work there, then that’s a very powerful reputation to have and enables you to have the best people. So yeah, you have different targets in terms of messaging to your various publics and people who are viewing this podcast who are looking for jobs, they are absolutely the the employers are their target audience, but they are also a target audience for the employers. The employers want to attract the best people to come and work for them. So it’s always that, that two way deal, never supplication, always negotiation, amen.
Jeff Altman
I’ll just simply say one of the coolest ways to get someone’s attention is engaging with the channel on YouTube or the channel on Instagram, and messaging the community sponsor for it, and just simply saying, I am so impressed by some of the stuff that you’re doing. This is what I do. And he introduced me to someone. And flattery can work. It doesn’t work all the time, but nothing works all the time.
Quentin Langley
Yeah, absolutely. And it’s when you get these meetings for the networking. I always say your target is to come out of that meeting with two new names, because the next person you approach is then doubly flatter. I may approach you and say, you know, Jeff, I’d like to ask your advice. And then the next person I approach, I said, Well, Jeff Altman suggested I ask your advice, so now they’re doubly flattered, because I’m interested, and you said they were interesting. So that’s two people who think highly of them. So yeah, that’s that’s how networking goes on.
Jeff Altman
So What haven’t we covered yet related to branding that we really should in order to make our audience go, wow, that Quentin guy. He’s got some good advice.
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Quentin Langley
I think we, I think we do need to focus on LinkedIn. I know it’s a particular area of interest of yours. Because that is where you target people by the sort of role that they’re presently in. So you build your network there, and you produce content there that is interesting to the sort of people that might be offering you your next job. So always have it in mind, what is the next stage in your career that what do you want to be doing, and what sort of organization do you want to be working in, if you’re obviously in the core business of the organization, that might be quite a narrow field. But if you’re a recruiter, or you’re a PR person, you could be working in any different sector, lawyer, any of these professions, you could be working in any different sector. So one of the questions you ask yourself is, what sort of sector do I want to work in? How do I establish a reputation brand with those people? So I would say LinkedIn is the place where you are building that network and producing the content marketing, producing the content that people in your network want to be sharing their content as you say, you know, passing it on and saying, Hey, this is great stuff coming out of such and such an organization. Yeah, there’s, there’s, there’s a lot you can do to build your brand, your reputation, among your target audience. I prefer the word reputation to brand. In some ways, I would like to have called the book reputation Jack. It just didn’t have quite as much ring to it as brand Jack, because it’s although they mean largely the same thing. PR, people use reputation, marketing. People use brand they mean largely the same thing. The difference is, reputation is a perfectly ordinary word that everyone uses and everyone understands, whereas most people who are not in the profession, if you talk about brand, they think you mean your logo. What I’m saying is it’s it’s way deeper than that, it’s all of those associations that people have with your name and with you and with all of the things that you do. So yeah, I’m
Jeff Altman
going to share the story that I love to do about branding and its power, and it starts off with when you go to the store and you buy detergent. I’ve never, ever seen someone pick up two possible purchases, look at the list of ingredients and go, Oh, the interrelationship of the chemicals in this product is probably going to do a better job of making my wash wider than the relationship of the chemicals in this one. No, they buy the price, the name their wife, husband, partner, mother, father, whomever it is, told them to buy that one a coupon, anything incidental to the actual
Quentin Langley
packaging that says whitening, or, yeah, or preserves the color or something like that. Yeah. It’s all of those, all of those things. And increasingly, of course, as people increasingly buy online, it’s whatever you bought last time. It’s just so much easier to buy the same thing again than it is to go out and look for a different brand. So there’s a massive amount of momentum about it. You catch people for the first sale, and then they stick with you, unless you let them down another I mean, taxis, of course, changed as the markets in zuba and lift came in, but I think there were, there were two stages before that. There was the stage when they all had names that were the beginning of the alphabet, abco or four A’s or something like that, so that you’d find them on the alphabetical listing. And then there was the stage where it all became about the number that you had in your cell phone. At some point, you loaded a taxi telephone number into your cell phone, and you kept using the same taxi firm unless they let you down. And because what’s the point of changing it? It’s right there, I could easily call that number. And so, you know, getting that first relationship is a massively important part of branding, because for a lot of markets, people will just stick with you ongoing basis.
Jeff Altman
It’s convenient, it’s habit, it’s comfortable. Bull. It’s effortless. And us folks, you want to be the person who they don’t have to think about anymore. As I point out, when firms hire ultimately want, what they want to do is trust the person that they choose. They don’t want to have to worry about you. And thus you want to be the trusted individual, which comes in a variety of different packages, of course, but ultimately, you want to be generating Trust, which is a big part of your brand. Hey, we can go on for hours. I know this already. How can people find out more about you and the work that you do.
Quentin Langley
Gwen, well, LinkedIn is a good place to start that. In fact, I would say that that’s the best. But the brand Jack blog, I’ve not been keeping up to date lately, so I would
Jeff Altman
say Bad boy. Bad boy.
Quentin Langley
Well, I’m moving on. The latest book was about ethics, and the next one is about risk. So I’m establishing different sorts of credentials as I move along, but I would say probably LinkedIn is the best place to track me down, and you therefore see the different pathways and the different areas of expertise that I have. And as I said, I’m very Google.
Jeff Altman
And do you recall the URL for your LinkedIn profile?
Quentin Langley
I think it’s linkedin.com/in/quentin, Langley, something like that.
Jeff Altman
Okay, he doesn’t think there are any other Quentin langleys in the world.
Quentin Langley
So there is one guy in Ohio who likes trains. But you know, if you Google my name, the whole of the first page of Google is me, and
Jeff Altman
thus you should be able to find them, Quentin. Thank you. And folks will be back soon with more. I’m Jeff Altman, the big game hunter, which is my branding. Visit my website, the big game hunter.us. There’s a ton there in the blog that you can watch, listen to or read that will help you with job search, hiring more effectively, managing and leading stuff in the workplace, but primarily around job search. In addition, if you’re interested in one on one coaching, or you have questions for me at the website, what you’re able to do is schedule time for coaching. You can ask me questions through the site. I’d love to help you. Also want to remind you I’ve got a great class on Udemy called the ultimate job interview framework that will teach you ways to interview like no one else that will allow you to stand out from everyone else. It’s also available on Amazon as a book or for Kindle as well. So again, the course the book is called the ultimate job interview framework. Lastly, connect with me on LinkedIn. LinkedIn, com, forward slash. In forward slash, the big game hunter, hope you have a terrific day, and most importantly, be great. Take care. Bye.
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