Your Feelings and Your Job Search | No BS Job Search Advice Radio

EP 2266 This is the second time I’ve interviewed Dan Hill. He just released a book, “Blah, Blah, Blah: A Snarky Guide to Office Lingo” So much of what we cover relates to another of his books, “Emotionomics: Leveraging Emotions for Business Success”

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Your Feelings and Your Job Search | No BS Job Search Advice Radio


You may also find my playlist, “Stupid Job Interview Mistakes” helpful.

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episode 2266
of the number one podcast apple podcast
for jobs
this is no bs job search advice radio
i'm jeff baldwin big gay matter and
you know we all feel stuff during a job
search it is a painful process
fraught with disappointment
and that's what the subject is of
today's interview with dan hill this is
the second time i've interviewed him
i interviewed him probably a year and a
half two years ago
when a previous book about
body language and decoding facial
expressions was released
this one well frankly it's a humor book
but that's not what this interview is
about his new book is blah blah blah a
snarky guide to office lingo
and this interview has nothing to do
with that it really has to do with
being aware of emotions during the
course of your search hope you find this
helpful in giving an honest review
wherever you listen to the show
and just gonna remind you next week i'm
gonna the last show i'm releasing uh
before i take a short break for
thanksgiving is gonna be on tuesday i'll
be back the following week probably on
tuesday or wednesday
with the next show and
i hope you enjoy this one and we'll be
back in just one moment
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one moment
so my guest today is dan hill who's a
phd and author of nine books including
emotionomics which was an advertising
age top 10 must read selection and
features a forward from sam simon
co-creator of the simpsons
dan founded sensory logic whose clients
include over 50 of the world's top 10
advertisers he's pioneered the use of
facial coding in business to capture and
quantify consumer responses has seven
u.s patents for scoring methods for the
tool the economist is dubbed central to
the emerging facial industrial complex
and by the way his newest book blah blah
i love that title a snarky guide to
office lingo is a fun read enjoy it it's
i really enjoyed reading it was a lot of
fun dan welcome
thank you so much for welcoming to the
show i would mention by the way one
correction it's actually the top 100
advertisers not the top ten yeah ooh
thank you for the correction my
apologies not quite all right
every once in a while you'll read
something and
it comes out of the mouth a little weird
that's quite all right top ten wouldn't
be necessarily quite as impressive it
may be harder to make a living by
i agree with you so dan let me ask a
how does it how do you think it feels to
be in a job search when it's been going
on for a while
well i think there are two principal
emotions and they can both get you into
trouble if you don't utilize them
correctly one is you're inevitably going
to feel anger because anger as an
emotion is about i want to control my
destiny and i want to make progress
you know better than i do that's the
statistics of how it works to apply for
jobs online with the online job banks
and so forth is really arduous you can
throw in so many of those
and it just doesn't seem to go anywhere
so anger that can really build in a
sense that you are spinning out of
you're in the face you know the hands of
fate and it's a cruel fate is really a
tough thing and so what you have to do
is find some ways in which you can still
feel like you do have some control of
your destiny like i will do these number
per week or per day
i'm going to make these adjustments or
improvements or learnings from how i'm
doing things some way in which you feel
like you're honing your game making
progress getting better at it because
otherwise just being consumed by rage
over this whole process will not be
but there's a second emotion we can go
to in a moment perhaps
and you know i'm thinking back
to what you just said
you don't think rage works
we probably don't want to hire jeffrey
dolmer yes um you you don't want to come
across as a psycho killer um so if the
rage starts to emerge frustration anger
uh you know is that the kind of
co-worker you want you know person on
staff probably not uh self-directed
energetic yes
uh crazy ma'am crazy woman no
and yeah
in a workshop that i led for quite a few
years the phrase i would use is
use it don't abuse it how do you take
energy that comes from anger
diffuse it but use the good quality of
it that's really about you know i'm
frustrated passionate how do i
you know get out of the
expression of it but take the energy and
apply it to what you need to do next
yeah yeah because every emotion has an
upside and a downside to it and so yes
we have movies like anger management
which makes it seem like anger is this
but as i'm alluding to anger also has a
benefit it is that you in fact want to
be self-initiating you want to be
proactive you want to get someplace
and so
harness it but yes don't abuse it
you mentioned there's a second emotion
yeah and i think this one's really
crucial particularly if the job search
goes on for a while
i think you should think about a job
search and joining a company very much
in terms of maslow's hierarchy of needs
at the lowest level of that pyramid base
is i need a job i need security i need
food shelter you know clothing i gotta
survive here
um so that can induce fear but as you
move up through that ladder there are
two other things you're really hoping
for one is a chance to belong
and that's really crucial and so now
you're feeling like you're bereft like
you're alone and just above that is you
want esteem uh again the job search can
really batter you over time if seemingly
no one quote-unquote wants you so i
think the second emotion here really
important over time is sadness
because sadness is i'm longing to be
hugged i'm longing to be included i'm
longing to join your company and when
you feel sad and i know this from my
work in pro sports
one of the things that happens is you
slow down both mentally and physically
the very energy that anger can give you
sadness takes away from you and you feel
sad because you feel forlorn you feel
you know you don't think anything's
going to turn out and obviously if that
slows you to a crawl
yes by definition the job search is not
going to go well because you're no
longer actually engaged in a job search
you've been filled with despair and
you've essentially dropped out
i just i've spent more than 20 25 years
facilitating psycho drama
and in doing that
one of the easiest ways to understand
what's going on for someone is if
the emotion that they're expressing on
top is anger behind it is sadness
conversely if the thing that they're
expressing is sadness often what's
behind it
is extreme anger
so the two are linked together very
tightly they they are like they can do a
job search because you'd like to get to
eventually but for a lot of the process
that's not really apropos
and you are so right it's not that we
have this emotion or that emotion we
tend to have blends of emotion
and how they impact each other what's
the sequence does one dominate at
certain stages in a job search
you're so spot on
and i'll throw in a third one which is
which is
you know often
when you're you think you've done well
on interviews
and you're disappointed with the
shame is often an emotion that people
turn to
uh you know i'm a failure
i'm a loser all those other sorts of
emotions that frankly is not
particularly useful
sure and that brings in a third emotion
because shame is derived in part from
fear you know fear that i'm a loser
i i remember so well many years ago i
was doing a presentation for general
motors they put out a print ad that
essentially apologized for their
previous production hairs
low quality
and it tested terribly among their their
loyal buyers because you're basically
saying i'm a loser and a fool because i
bought your product so i give the
presentation on the way out i'm going
back to what i call the the gerbil tube
which is back to the parking lot from
the general motors headquarters a glass
enclosed second floor walkway i pass a
young african-american woman in a
t-shirt spangly t-shirt and has one word
on it winner
and she probably isn't actually a winner
in life you know odds are but she wanted
to be a winner we all want to be winners
but the fear of being the loser
sure it has to build during the process
of a job search if it's not going well
and that's a terrible predicament
because just as sadness brings you to a
halt fear can do it in a different way
which is you freeze up
like oh my god if i take this next step
it could be a disaster
and yet you have to keep taking the next
it reminds me of the famous amy cunning
ted talk
where she talks about how her posture
how her behavior it was faked until you
become it
was her theme of trying to convert the
feelings that she had
as someone who had a traumatic brain
and was trying to recover from that and
through her behavior and adopting the
you know the superman pose and the you
know the extreme clothes that's taking
her um arms up in the air yeah as
winners do when they cross the finish
line often
emotions are very contagious uh they can
be contagious between people certainly
but also for yourself so you're right
you can play with that when i it was a
version of a job search i suppose when i
started my company sensory logic all
those years ago
i wasn't used to being a pitch person
i'm someone who when i got married even
though i was in front of my family and
friends and relatives i put my head down
and i'm walking down the aisle my dad's
like lift your head down lift your head
eye contact with people but i was really
and when i started doing you know my
version of a job search which was
finding clients i remember so distinctly
one day a woman in phoenix cut me off
she said just spit it out dan what are
you trying to sell me
and that was the last call i made that
day but what i did is i made some
adjustments i put a few talking points
up on the bulletin board and eventually
i didn't look at them anymore because i
got more comfortable and i said okay put
a smile on your face just before you
make the call even though you're feeling
because you've got to get over this hump
and do anything you can to help induce
yourself that direction so
these days so many people are in lieu of
beating someone in person
are doing this
over a camera of some sort whether it's
a person on the other side or software
that's doing the evaluation on the other
side and
you're an expert on how
people and software
is looking at micro expressions
interpreting how you really think feel
should we start off with the actual
human being or the software version
i think the actual human being because
uh it's probably more sensitive to how
it reads things but you're gonna have to
deal with both potentially certainly the
software is increasing in frequency and
we should talk about that in ai before
we get done here but yeah let's go ahead
and start with the the uh
the zoom call the virtual you know
interview meeting so zoom teams webex
whatever it is
an interview has been scheduled
do you want the person waiting there
to be admitted into the room do you want
to keep the other person waiting for
i guess i was raised in minnesota and we
have expression minnesota nice syndrome
so i have no problem with being the
person waiting and not assuming the
power position if i'm the supplicant the
job applicant
uh i kind of expect that the person
interviewing me is quote unquote busy or
wants to assume the power position and
they're going to join last minute
to me that's not the most important
thing the important thing is making the
connection and seeing if you have a fit
so i i can survive that dynamic however
it's it's played by whomever i'm a
believer that you want to be the person
waiting for the interviewer well i think
that's the pla that's the politeness of
the nice thing to do yeah correct so now
you're being connected
walk us through the behaviors and have
someone should be expressing themselves
from a face perspective from a body
perspective given the fact that we're
only seeing two
mid chest in the middle middle of the
top of the chest let's say excuse me
folks i'm going to use that word to the
uh okay
on most camera views
so this is the first thing is is think
about it as a big arc that goes like
that in other words our attention span
in any session tends to be really high
at the start and it comes back at the
end because we're wondering what's the
closed i'm almost done with this and is
there a parting last word but that means
that you know that old cliche there's
not a second chance to make a first
really does matter
uh don't try to fake it because there's
actually we should talk about this there
are ways in which we can detect whether
it's a real smile or not a real smile
but if you can possibly get there and if
you're the job search person
and you have fought and fought your way
to an interview you should be somewhat
happy or at least hoping to be happy so
to put out a nice smile at the start is
fabulous because a smile is basically
the business equivalent or the emotional
equivalent of an open for business sign
you know whether it's a neon sign or
otherwise in the front window of your
it's saying i am taking in customers i
want to connect i want to make things
happen let's have a transaction here so
i i think you have to show the smile i
mean just it's pro forma but you got to
do it and hopefully it's a good one and
a real one
i think you have to lean in a little bit
not not to quote cheryl sandberg but yes
i think you have to lean in and show you
you're moving forward you're moving
toward this occasion uh you're not
sitting back in some haughty manner
you're not totally lacking in energy
uh i you know if i'm hiring someone i
want a reasonably happy camper i don't
want them to be a happy [ __ ] but i want
them to be a happy camper i can work
and i want them that not be a lump of
coal you know once they come to the
when i would coach people about
in-person interviews
i always spoke about the beginning as
being important
grieving someone with that big friendly
smile and as you start talking and
answering the question
to also have that smile but let it blend
to serious
so they see you have multiple
personalities it's harder to do it the
other way around you know start off
serious and then work to the
big smiling person yeah it looks more
fake and um yes you're getting into the
meat of the conversation but i mean in
terms of a smile it's really important
not come across as glib i remember you
know some people i interviewed for jobs
and if they just smiled all the way
through it was like i'm actually
investing real money in you i got
training time
and you have to remember that happiness
obviously has its upside it means you
are you know open to consideration
you're good at brainstorming you're good
at collaboration you're an upbeat person
the downside to happiness is that you
you don't pay attention to the details
you don't take things seriously enough
so i think you're absolutely right as
you get into the substance of the
interview and the details of what the
job's like and what you need to bring to
the job and all of that
come back to some smiles by all means to
show the openness to being a good
but it's not a problem at all that
that's not going to be as prevalent
but don't just gladhand your way through
the whole interview
like this is a breeze i've got this
that's not going to have any credibility
that's not going to make me if i'm
interviewing someone it's not going to
make me think that i've got a serious
candidate who's really going to be an
asset to the company i'm afraid i've got
a showboat
a no-show
i mean a whole host of problems
and for those of you who are at a
manager level and above the notion that
you're going to sit there with a
eating smile on your face for for a half
hour or so yeah is ridiculous now the
expectation is for those of you who
manage direct
or to vp level and above
you've got to be tough at times they
want to see
those qualities in you
express through your face your tone of
voice your manner that allow them to see
different dimensions of your personality
am i wrong about that you are totally
right and let me actually add to an
element there um so i've in another book
of mine called two cheers for democracy
uh how emotions drive leadership style i
went through and i looked at all of the
us presidents and i compared their
emoting to how the presidential scholars
have evaluated their effectiveness in
office and perhaps even more appropriate
to this conversation about interviews
i looked at the us presidential debates
held since kennedy nixon all of them and
compare the data to the week after
results on the ratings for the
candidates from the gallup polls
and so my suggestion actually involving
happiness is twofold
one is if at all possible at the start
of the interview get to what's called a
true smile and a true smile doesn't just
involve the muscles around the mouth it
also involves the twinkle in the eye
it is some joy some delight i really
want this job i remember hiring a woman
because she emailed me back with a
correction a typo she saw on my website
half an hour after the interview there
was in fact a typo there i was appalled
i fixed it immediately but it told me
she really wanted the job
and i hired her and she was one of my
best workers ever so if you have that
extra edge of delight of joy
let it shine early on let it bring it
the other thing i really saw from the
presidential debates is i ended up
calling it the golden blend
and the golden blend which reagan did
well which clinton did well
both of whom had either time in
hollywood or good friends in hollywood
and do something about acting was that
the golden blind was both happiness and
slight anger muted anger but anger there
and the reason why i call it the golden
blend because the happiness seemed to
convey that you were a winner that you
were upbeat optimistic you were going to
go after things collaborate be open to
suggestions all of those wonderful
aspects but the slight anger like the
the pursing of the lips for instance the
narrowing of the eyes not out of control
anger but a sense of purpose because if
for instance you're running for
president you want to say
i will bring us all there so i'm open
and collaborative
and i have the intent the plan the drive
to make it happen on behalf of us
and that's why i called it the golden
blend and it pulled well and it's going
to pull well for you in your very minor
focus group called the two or three
people or the one person interviewing
you you should really be looking for it
and i'm thinking on tough interview
where you know you got it
bringing the smile back on your face at
that moment to let them know
you thought this was tough
i got this one
you know so the smile comes back on and
they can see that that you're able to
gracefully and effortlessly
swat it away
becomes a way of demonstrating
confidence and you're going to say
something to the contrary no i'm not but
i'm going to add to it actually because
one of the things i've seen in people
like tom brady and bill gates and others
is yeah they'll smile
but they'll actually also smirk
they will show contempt
because if it comes with a smile
contempt can be yeah i got this i'm
superior i you know i'm not going to get
ruffled i can move through this
you know i'm at the top of my game and
i'm the kind of person you should be
on the other hand if the contempt comes
with anger and i think he's a a great
artist may not be my music exactly but
prince right here from the twin cities
he showed contempt often because he
tangled with the record companies for
one thing and there's something called
racism out there in society
yeah just you know a news flash for all
of your listeners
but he would show anger along with
and uh it's nothing against hiring
someone who's african-american by any
stretch of the imagination whatsoever
however if i saw it in a white person
black person asian person anybody
i would tell you that contempt and anger
suggests something probably a little
more volatile because contempt of smirk
can also suggest
i'm above you i'm superior to you i
don't trust you and trust is the emotion
of business
and you are going to have to try to
cobble this together it's tough and you
have to cobble this together as manager
employee or with teammates
and so someone who comes in and has
already got a disposition
to be contemptuous
and you know angry pissed off about it
that's probably a powder cake that's
going to be a little difficult to deal
so contempt with a smile a smile and a
contempt and a negative emotion i think
you're in more difficult territory when
i coach people about interviewing i
always start by telling them competence
is only one thing that they're looking
for there are a lot of competent people
they look for self-confidence
some people want to hire people who are
but they're in sales roles
but generally they want to hire people
who have character i can demonstrate it
so confidence self-confidence character
chemistry maybe a little bit of charisma
because charismatic people always do
better on interviews than
which disadvantages introverts generally
don't project u.s centric
self-confidence yeah
but it all adds up to they want to trust
the person that they hire
yes yes that's the formula for trust
yeah and so if trust is the emotion of
business contempt is its opposite i
think you can get away with it when it's
a smile particularly in a tough got you
question where you can show that you can
ride through it it's the fourth quarter
you're down by two touchdowns but you're
gonna win this interview
i think that's great but there's one
really important thing to bear in mind
here for most people on average i've
been doing facial coding for 20 years
across like 25 40 countries i mean i
have witnessed a whole lot of people and
most of us about 70 of our emoting is
happiness or anger those are both
approach emotions i want to hug you i
want to hit you
all of the other emotions sadness and
fear and disgust and contempt uh those
are in surprise those are kind of the
accent emotions they're the other 30 of
the game
that's why the golden blend is so
important because that is where most of
the game gets played is happiness and
anger and blending them but tilting a
bit toward the happiness without
avoiding or skewing the the anger
is just really the great place to go so
yeah i think a little bit contempt is is
maybe even helpful to the cause if you
feel it and it's there but don't
overplay that part because yes it all
comes back to trust and contempt starts
to really muddy the waters on whether
trust is going to be feasible
and then we have software versions
of evaluation
and we're not going to talk about any
particular product sure because we don't
want to necessarily
provide a road map we want to you know
provide an overall impression of how to
respond when software is doing the
evaluation and what it tends to look for
in the way of micro expressions
that allow it to believe it's
interpreting or
the programming suggests that it's
interpreting it for the right behaviors
so how does one express themselves on
camera when there's no other person
there it's just a piece of software
recording an answer
yeah and i'm i'm going to get to an
answer that but i'm going to set up a
little bit of context for for listeners
and viewers first so we all know that
artificial intelligence is coming on and
it's coming on strong uh the estimations
about how many job displacements is one
factor another one is what's the skill
set you're actually going to want to
have on the job you're increasingly
going to be someone who actually just
like we learned how to type and be on
computers in the 80s and the 90s
later part of the 20s and into the 2030s
you're going to be someone who basically
doesn't necessarily have a teammate
you've got a computer system
you're working with you've got ai that
you were working with and it will mean
that your emotional intelligence which
is really what i focus on in my my
studies and books and so forth that's
going to become really important because
it differentiates you it allows you to
add value to do things that the software
can't do
so that's one piece of my background the
other one is
yes facial coding is part of what you
alluded to in the introduction which is
it's part of the emerging facial
industrial complex as the economist
magazine called it
there's a reason for that
not surprisingly but also microsoft
google apple
a chinese company that's valued into the
billions they are all automating facial
so they are not nearly as good as they
need to be yet uh easier is face
recognition and even that software uh in
a racist sense i'm sad to say sometimes
mistakes black people for apes
for not even being human that that's how
much the software still needs to improve
so you can imagine that the automated
facial coding
software has its problems when it comes
to accurately distinguishing between the
seven emotions i mentioned a bit ago
there's a really much easier barometer
that they can probably handle however
that's instrumental to you doing well in
those kinds of evaluations and we
haven't talked about it yet and that's
the engagement level
simply whether or not you emote
versus you have a poker face
or a failure to have any affect to emote
why is this so important because we
emote we show that something matters to
if you go back to latin
motivation and emotion have the same
root word
move ray to move to make something
happen as a small business owner do i
want my employees to make something
happen to get something done other than
just pocket the paycheck absolutely
i don't want the person who shows up and
couldn't care less that they don't have
any stakes in the game and so regardless
of which emotions you're showing just
the fact that you're showing emotions is
a really key barometer and the software
to date tends to kind of pick up on
every slight little nuance so it's kind
of over reporting the data but it's most
definitely reporting the data and you
need to show up on the radar screen
you prompted me to now add another scene
in my formula it's competent
self-confidence character chemistry
charisma care yeah
yeah so thank you for that i've told
people for years that this is a part of
it but i hadn't worked into the formula
until you now spoke so
it's recognizing emotions probably over
interpreting it now
but it'll get closer to being right with
time uh as there's more machine learning
going on yeah for for instance when i
yeah because i started applying facial
coding into business before it was just
done by the cia and the fbi
um and in psychology and in academia
that's where it was so i brought into
the business starting in 1998 uh the
automators once they realized i had a
business going uh followed suit around
about starting about 2004 or five
i first tested some of the systems about
2010. they were about 35 percent
accurate now they're about 50 accurate
so they're going to keep moving in that
direction and it's absolutely essential
that people recognize that this is
coming on and it's going to be a real
filter not just what you can type in
into a form but how you come across
whether it's virtual in person zoom call
whatever i want to go back to one
emotion i mentioned
i want to go back to i just want to
check one thing with you
to do hand gestures
get picked up on by the software as an
expression as a person expressing
themselves and for those of you who are
going to watch this on youtube or amazon
you'll see me i'm using my hands as i'm
talking does it pick up on that or does
it just stick to the face
um let me first go to to hand gestures
and why they're tricky uh i lived in
italy as a boy we lived on the italian
riviera you know tough break uh and uh
all the traffic we come back from the
french riviera on sunday and you can see
the drivers i don't know if you can see
this hand gesture but going do you do
that they're they're raising their hands
uh i'm not showing it well but anyway
they're raising their hand in kind of a
version of giving you the bird
it did not mean i love you most
definitely they're sitting in traffic
the problem with hand gestures is
they're affected by culture
and by gender in terms of our body
displays and so they're they're not
universal in the way that facial
expressions are and so my belief is that
most of the software is really focusing
uh in the region from essentially you
know the chin up to the eyebrows
uh it's been called it's been called the
25 most valuable square inches of real
estate in the world
because in the face we we have four of
our five senses everything but touch
uh we it signifies your beauty or
attractiveness handsomeness it gives us
a sense obviously of your race and
gender and age
um so there is so many other things
going on it's really the the signpost
the signifier the billboard for who we
are but that's the part of the real
estate that makes sense and and the hand
gestures are are less complete you
really have pretty much you can put it
into the categories of whether you're
more assertive more submissive
uh more kind of
open but maybe even hapless
a bit it's really much more limited than
what the face can give you thank you i
interrupted you as you were going to go
back to
a different emotion well there was one
emotion i mentioned earlier in this
interview that i think really is
important and it's a subtle emotion so
i'm really afraid that the software
probably doesn't pick it up really well
so far
and and that's sadness
so probably the most reliable way that
we show sadness is that the eyebrows
arch together but they lift in the
uh we just had the commemoration the
20th anniversary of 9 11.
and in fact i was supposed to be in one
of the twin towers that morning for a
meeting with american express
and it got cancelled because
a key person couldn't make the meeting
so i'm really happy to be here talking
with you jeff because i would have been
in one of those buildings i don't
remember what floor we were on
but in the commemoration for 9 11 with
the firemen and so forth i saw some
heartbreaking instances of photographs
where you had those eyebrows pulled
together and upward in the middle a
really reliable sign of sadness
the other ways can be like a little
wince in the cheek for instance but
here's why and i mentioned this book
really this is why sadness is
so important when i looked at the u.s
presidents their effectiveness in office
and what the
u.s historians presidential historians
said about that
the single strongest correlation to
being ineffective in the job with
because again it slows you down
it makes you listless drop out and so
forth now obviously being the president
of the united states is probably the
most stressful job on the planet or
among them but every worker has more
coming at them these days than they
would care to shake a stick at
jobs are complicated we multitask and so
so that ro you know sadness the upside
is it makes you ponder things
uh lincoln showed sadness
but he also showed happiness he had a
rueful sense of humor he made fun of
himself it was self-depreciating jokes
and so forth so he to my mind extracted
the best out of sadness which is you can
reflect on things you can ponder you
don't want to rush into the next mistake
and it can be tremendously helpful for
things like empathy
so i'm not trying to give a bum rap to
but once again it slows you down and i
think an interviewer could be really
terrified that they've got somebody
who's a slowpoke that they're going to
hire so i think you want to emote to
show energy and you probably want to
stay away from sadness unless the
question is specifically around
your talents of being inclusive being a
good teammate being a good listener
then i think it's a wonderful thing to
bring out actually because it's really
the emotion of empathy that's that's
it's it's longsuit and it's interesting
often i see that expressed through
slowing down speech
and in slowing down speech
you know one of the things i coach
people about is how that often conveys
that's yeah yeah that's how it gets
interpreted yeah no i'm you know i
mentioned earlier someone who just
smiles all the way through the interview
can come across as too glib and not very
invested in the job
yeah that's where i think sadness can
suggest some some weight
you know some substance to who you are
so again no emotion is all positive or
all negative
you know it's a little more multifaceted
than that
but i i think that you know we tend to
worry about you know someone who's blue
you know and so forth so i think you got
to be careful with it in a job interview
uh but you know if we get to onboarding
we can discuss that but just in general
there are certainly positive attributes
to sadness
what happened we covered yet about
interviewing that we should because we
only have a few more minutes left
for content
sure i i think the key here is we we
didn't mention one other emotion i think
we've hit practically all of them except
for disgust which is kind of like
contempt and an aversive rejection
but surprise because you earlier brought
up kind of the gotcha questions and and
one recourse with that was to have the
smile and the smirk and suggest you can
just ride through it but you might be
genuinely caught flat-footed by a
question and you need a moment
i think one of the great things to do is
to ask them to repeat the question
or repeat the comment it buys you time
because surprise
you know the mouth drops open the eyes
go wide you're like taking like oh my
god that's what they're asking me
yeah exactly like that the good news is
that it tends to be a really brief
expression almost all expressions are
are quite brief uh anger might you know
flare and last a while contempt can be
kind of attitudinal and stay on the face
but a lot of expressions particularly
surprised are in that you use the term
microexpression really brief
so if you're lucky they don't really
notice the surprise or you can quickly
you know throw even an artificial smile
on it to soften the blow a bit
but you need to get out of the surprise
and you moved it need to move on to
thinking about how you're going to
handle it
and yeah that's my number one idea
uh ask them to clarify repeat give you
an example of what they're talking about
get them to talk switch the spotlight
back on them they're now going to be as
the interviewer caught up in their own
you know words and how they want to
formulate that and it buys you some time
if you're on the other side and you're
really caught by surprised by what the
interview subject said i think you have
more license to just admit your surprise
and say
do i understand you right did you just
say x
and stay with it because the surprises
you get in the interview might be a
little bit disturbing but the surprises
you get after they take the job
those can really ruin your life
surprises are never good no matter where
you are in this formula
uh generally speaking there can be a
wonderful surprise like oh i've got that
talent you know i've done that before oh
that's what you need next on the job um
so there can be some wonderful surprises
i say a surprise it's like the following
uh i got a new car for christmas that's
i had a new car
accident on the way home from work
that's not wonderful
so uh the new car is great so actually i
do think there's an upside it's a
surprise even in an interview
uh but yes once you're on the job you
hope they they settle in they got a
groove they're a good fit the
competencies all match
uh yeah you want probably fewer
surprises as things go along
excellent dan this is as it was on our
first interview with one another a few
years ago a lot of fun how can people
find out more about you the work that
you do
the book blah blah blah
a snarky guy to office lingo which is a
lot of fun folks how can people find out
more about you yeah no thank you so much
um i guess there's the website of course
the obligatory 3ws and sensory
stay with my company i have things about
my books my podcast on the new books
network called dan hill's eq spotlight
uh all sorts of things like that are
there uh but you can also if you want
blah blah blah or i alluded to the book
two cheers for democracy or my book on
eq that's called
famous faces decoded
they're all on amazon of course
so that's today's show i hope you found
it helpful and if you did here are a few
things i can do to help you with your
job search beyond simply being your
first of all i've got a new book out
called the right answers to tough
interview questions it is like a
cookbook with answers to
tons of interview questions that you're
going to be asked on interviews
and if you pair it up with my other new
book the ultimate job interview
framework they are a terrific pair of
books to help you with interviewing
in addition to a new service where you
can practice mock interviews if you go
to the big game hunter
dot us
slash mock
i've got a service there very
inexpensive like 99
where we have mock interviews set up i'm
going to be adding more to it very soon
but you can record your answers to them
and then i can critique them and help
you perform better on them
you probably have noticed my show notes
are pretty thorough with
products and services that can help you
with your search
and connect with me on linkedin at forward slash i n forward
slash the big game hunter lastly my
website has a ton of great information
that's the big game
now if you're not ready to go there and
go through the blog
put the address in your phone the big
jeff altman so this way when you're
ready to go you have a way of getting
back to my website
hope you have a terrific day and most
be great


JeffAltman, The Big Game Hunter
JeffAltman, The Big Game Hunter

Jeff Altman, The Big Game Hunter is a coach who worked as a recruiter for what seems like one hundred years. His work involves career coaching, as well as executive job search coaching, job, and interview coaching. He is the host of “No BS Job Search Advice Radio,” the #1 podcast in iTunes for job search with more than 2200 episodes.

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