Small Mistakes, Big Consequences for Interviews | JobSearchTV.com
By Jeff Altman, The Big Game Hunter
EP 1911 I interview Ane Corley Baum, author of Small Mistakes, Big Consequences, for Interviews (Released Sep 1, 2020) https://amzn.to/2FgsVOI about a few of those mistakes and how to avoid them.
Jeff
So my guest today is Ann Corley Baum, it is spelled B-A-U-M who’s the author of the original book is called, ‘small mistakes, big consequences’. The new book is coming out on September 1, 2020, small mistakes, big consequences for interviews, which is why she’s on this show.
And I’m just going to simply say, Lehigh Valley, executive, and vice president of distribution channels and labor relations for the Capital Blue Cross, not exactly a small firm. An award winner, she’s coached high performance or high potential performers on their way up the ladder to the C suite. And thanks for making time today, I appreciate it.
Ann
Thank you for having me.
Jeff
My pleasure. What prompted you to write the new book?
Ann
Well, through my career, I learned a lot of things about what works and what doesn’t work in the business. And I felt compelled to share what I’ve learned along my career journey with others; so that they can avoid making some of those small mistakes that can not only lead to big consequences but in some cases tend to end a particular component of their career. So putting the book together as a piece of advice that anybody could use at any stage in their career to really learn how their personal behavior is perceived by others, and to raise that awareness so that they can be their best self whenever they’re out in business or in life in general.
Jeff
In other words, or coaching them, I’m just starting to get jealous here.
Ann
I should borrow your coach hat.
Jeff
Well, it’s what you do obviously. A part of the work that a leader does is coach their staff, and it’s natural that you would do a book like this. How did you develop the characters in the book?’
Ann
Well, what I did was put together a list of really annoying behaviors. And frankly, there are things that I have done that I know backfired or characters that I would run into. And I put together the list of the mistakes and then I put humorous and memorable names on them so that people could; when looking at their own behavior, or that of their team members could easily identify somebody in a humorous way that could then lead to a positive discussion on how to improve a particular behavior.
Jeff
I’m going to ask a quirky question here; because I read the PDF of the book a few weeks ago, so I’ve forgotten some of it. Do you have a Karen in there by any chance?
Ann
No.
Jeff
Because obviously the name Karen has become a much more famous name for the bad behavior of a particular sore. So I was just curious if there was a Karen in there.
Ann
There is currently not a Karen in the book.
Jeff
That’s good. The Karen’s have gotten beaten up sufficiently and with good reason. So perception’s reality, you know, what people believe is true becomes the truth of them. So how can someone who’s interviewing, how can a candidate do things to change the perception or deal with the incongruence between what they believe the reality is, and what an interviewer believes reality?
Ann
Well, I think one of the most important things you can do for an interview is to remove any distractions that can leave that negative impression with the interviewer. Being well prepared for the interview, arriving on time, and preferably early. Not eating, or drinking as part of that interview.
Being well prepared with your answers so that you’re not using filler words like, um, or, uh, or awkward, uh, words that get in the way of the message that you’re communicating; and really focusing on delivering the best version of yourself; and that is everything from how you dress. Making sure not only that you look good, but also that you’re comfortable in what you’re wearing, that you feel that power and confidence in preparing for the interview. And really do your homework on the company, so you’re not stuttering, and stammering, and asking silly questions that immediately eliminate you from the interview process.
Jeff
When I started in search back in the stone ages and we were scheduling people for interviews, it was a lot harder to find out about what firm did if they were not a well-known organization. These days there’s no excuse for some to say, “So what does your firm do”?
Ann
Exactly, and not only is it easy to find out about the company, but it’s also easy to find out about the people with whom you are interviewing. Take a look at their LinkedIn, look on Instagram, look on Facebook, and get a sense of the person. And I wouldn’t necessarily reveal that you are stalking them or spying on them, but get a sense of what’s important to them; What’s their background is, what their history is, and that will better prepare you for interacting with that individual.
Jeff
And on LinkedIn folks, one thing that you can do is in the privacy settings, turn off the way that people will see you online temporarily, so that way you can go look at their profile. Don’t look as though you’ve been examining them and all that will appear to them is: someone from Capital Blue Cross has looked at your profile and that’s as much as they’ll discover about you, it could be anyone in the organization. And then once you’re done, turn it back on, reverse the setting, but that allows you to maintain anonymity when doing it.
Ann
Great. And I agree with that anonymity, but also I will tell you if somebody is preparing for a meeting with me and I see that they have checked my LinkedIn, I have a great deal of respect for that because they’re taking the time to look and do their research prior to that meeting. And I find a great deal of innovation and a sense of doing that, so I am not offended when I see that somebody has taken a look at my LinkedIn profile,
Jeff
Other than looking at a LinkedIn profile, what are the forms of preparation should someone do in researching the organization, pr preparing for the interview?
Ann
Well, preparing for the interview means, first understanding what the job description is for the role, for which you are interviewing. Look at the skill sets that they are requesting. What are the duties and challenges associated with that role? So first understand the role, then take a look on the web, understand the company. If you know people that work at the company, ask them about the company or the individuals with whom you’re interviewing; and then think about what the typical questions would be for that interview and prepare what would be your best answer to those questions, and also prepare your questions for the interview. You’re interviewing for them to choose you, but you are also choosing this role. And even though they may want you for the role, if it’s not a good fit for your skillset or what you are trying to do with your career development, it won’t work out in the long run. So think through what your most important questions are for that interview as well.
Jeff
And thus, if someone is preparing to find out, I think by the time a person is asked about, “So do you have any questions for us”? The time is starting to run out and there isn’t a lot of time to ask questions. Do you have recommendations for questions that someone should ask to elicit a response so that they can learn about the role?
Ann
My absolute favorite question to ask at the end of an interview is, what does success look like in this role? Or what are the results you’re trying to achieve with this person in this role? Because it causes the interviewer to share what they’re looking for, and it helps you determine whether or not what they’re trying to accomplish is something that you are able to achieve.
I find whenever I ask a question like that, it causes the interviewer or the interviewing panel to pause and really think about it. I think it shows that you’re focused on success and results, and it really gives you great insight into where the company is going with the role that they’re trying to fill.
Ann
I language that question a little bit differently, and the way I set it up, my belief is I want to take people off their scripted answers. And that’s true when I coach employers about interviewing, and conversely job hunters about interviewing. So the first question I have them ask is, let’s say you hire me and I come on board, what would your expectations of me be for the first 30, 60, 90 days? Which most hiring managers can answer because they know what the immediate need is, but rather than asking what success is going to look like, I set her up a little bit differently, but I get to the same place. So let’s say it’s a year from now, it’s time to get me my first review. And you are thrilled with the decision you made to hire me, what will I have accomplished during that year that will make you think that way? The same outcome, but language differently. And it’s interesting how people get different answers to that question when it’s framed this way versus that way, and they both work. They both work.
Ann
That’s a great way to ask it. I really liked that.
Jeff
Thank you. I’m curious about something because I’ll explain my reason for my curiosity in a moment. I find job descriptions were back 80% accurate.
Ann
11:04 [Inaudible]
Jeff
Right! Thank you for confirming an opinion. And the reason I say that is most job descriptions are pulled out of the database at a time someone gives notice, and they’re never updated. So, here’s another one of my beliefs: I believe job entre start the interview. Instead of waiting for the other person to ask me, walk me through the background, or tell me about yourself. I have them ask, so thanks for making time to meet with me today. You know, I recall the position description or, you know, I spoke with Ann about the role, but I wanted to get your take on it. Could you tell me about the role as you see it and what I can do to help? So this way they can hear the current thinking about the position at the beginning of the interview and talk about what they’d done that matters instead of, in theory, being way off base, because they interpret the job as one thing, and the manager now needs something very different. What do you think?
Ann
Oh, I think that’s a great idea. And it reminds me to remind people to listen during that interview. So as you’re teeing up that question to hear what it is they’re expecting for the role, make sure that you’re actually listening to what they are saying, so you can formulate the appropriate answer as to how your skill set matches up with what they are seeking. So often we are not really listening, we’re just waiting to get to our next answer. And really taking the time to focus and listen to what they’re saying will help you give the best answer once they give you a great answer to the question you posed to them.
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Jeff
Thank you. This is so good for me and my coaching, I love this Ann. Because you are affirming something that, you know, I worked in search for more than 40 years; and you’ll learn after a while after it happens to you way too often, how to cope with these situations that keep repeating themselves. Thus, the next thing I do is I coach people to answer, tell me about yourself, starting off with a brief summary of experience, and then Segway into connecting the dots for the interviewer, for how their background matches the need that they were just told about. What do you think?
Ann
Oh, I think it’s great. And if you’re doing it well, the interviewer doesn’t even realize that you’re matching your skillset to what they need. You just leave that room and they think, “This is the perfect person”; because you have very subtly connected your talents, your expertise, and your experience with exactly what they are looking for. And the more you can hear from them, exactly what they’re looking for, and then match those needs with your skills, the better chance you have of getting the job and succeeding in it.
Jeff
And the more folks that you have, that you make the interviewer work to get that information out, the less they believe it’s the core part of your background. So by offering it up, and telling them what you’ve done that relates to what they’re looking for, it just makes it so much easier for them. And like Anne says, they believe you can do this job. So I’m sorry, please.
Ann
Well, I was just going to say what you said reminded me, don’t leave important characteristics or skill sets that you had to assumption. Don’t, if something that you have that happens to be in your resume, and is a perfect match for the role, make sure you get it out there on the table. Often someone has seen so many resumes, read so many different descriptions of individuals, reminding them the key competencies that you possess, the special talents that you offer, even though they might be on the inner or on the resume, make sure you’re bringing them to like in that interview, especially when they match up perfectly with the role.
Jeff
And what I think of that. I think in terms of applying for a job; and going through a system to apply, that’s often looking for keywords higher up in the document and repeated, so that it’s within the systems dictionary of terms. So the system goes, ‘ah, high potential match’.
So page one, the first half is ideal; page three bottom of the page, not so well. So we’re in a time of, we’re, we’re all doing interviews by video and this is going to go on much more normally in the future, of course; and folks are first getting used to the medium. What advice do you have for people who are being interviewed over video?
Ann
The first piece of advice that I have is to take it seriously; and prepare for it just as you would preparing to walk into an office, practice with your camera on. Make sure you have a great angle to your camera, make sure you have excellent lighting, and make sure that the sound is working well. Oftentimes it’s better to use a microphone and headphones as opposed to the speaker on your computer; think about what you’re wearing. Make sure that what you have on the camera matches up with the role that you are interviewing for. You still need to look the part, even though it’s via a video and practice, practice, practice, practice with friends. You can easily get a zoom account and turn on the camera and record yourself, hear how you sound, see yourself and get used to it; so that by the time you’re ready for that interview, you’re not worrying about your camera presence. You’re worrying about listening to the questions, you’re focused on who you are, and why you’re the right person for the role; and the camera just becomes something that’s going on in the background.
Jeff
Agreed. And it’s funny, you know, we’re both people who wear glasses and as such one of the small things, and I’m aware that my glasses are doing this is, is to glare on the glasses. And just being aware that in certain positions, is you don’t create as much glare. So if your head is tilted forward ever so slightly, often it takes the glare off. So for those of us who wear them, it’s just a small tip, but everyone wants to see your eyes.
Ann
Right! Right! Yeah, I agree. And there are so many little things that you can think through. Even what’s behind you, is there a big pile of garbage? Is there an empty plate with your lunch on it? Think about the things that are surrounding you in the background and just have it looked the best and most professional that it possibly can look.
Jeff
So thank you, and excuse my laughter, but I talk to people all day over zoom, and it’s amazing to see what’s behind people sometimes. And sometimes it’s the person walking by. And we’ve all seen these videos from TV, the person walking by in various forms of undress that are absolutely bizarre. Yeah, close the door if you are in a house with other people, minimize the distracting noises and lights in order to ensure things look well. Be aware of your backdrop, and how that presents as well.
Lots of little things that if you record yourself on camera, you’ll see and notice I’m sure.
So we’ve got so many different places that we can go to with this conversation. So I know part of what people in your profession do, part of what recruiters will do is kind of like doctors. They spend time ruling people out before they start ruling people in. What are the easy ways that recruiters ‘ fine to disqualify people from further consideration, even though they might actually be qualified for the role?
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Ann
One of the things that almost always catches my eye is somebody who has short stints and seems to be regularly moving from place to place. Now, if they’re moving for increasingly advanced roles so that it’s clearly a move to grow in their career, I am less critical of that than I am if it’s similar roles where they’re only there for six months, eight months, nine months.
Now during this current time, I think you’ll see people transitioning a little more simply because their positions are being eliminated or they’re being furloughed, so I encourage interviewers to take that into consideration during this time. And I just saw a resume the other day where somebody actually wrote furloughed right next to their term date. And I thought that that was very helpful; because to me that says that person didn’t quit. They weren’t fired their role was just put on furlough. So I think that’s a helpful piece of information right now, but that is something that regularly jumps out at me when somebody only has short stints, and they’re either getting fired, or they’re not a reliable employee that accompany could count on.
Jeff
Yeah. And again, as a former recruiter, I was trained by my clients to look at that, and to question: six months here, four months there; and thus with resumes, I would always tell people, “If these were consulting assignments that were designed to be short term, aggregate the dates into one category, keep each assignment underneath it, as distinct as you have it, but proceeding it in might be consultants. The aggregated dates on top and then underneath and having those assignments. And now with COVID, of course, it becomes much the same thing. Laid off due to COVID, I think everyone gets a pass for that.
Ann
Yes. Yes, but I think it’s important to include that information in the documentation. Whenever something is left unsaid or unaddressed, sadly people make the negative assumption, they assume the worst, so get it out there, be honest about it. If you have a gap in your resume, speak to it, address it, and explain what it is. And then at least it’s a point of discussion for the interview, and it gives somebody some sense that you’re not trying to sweep it under the rug and ignore it.
Jeff
Yeah. It always reminds me of the person who on their resume, left due to personal reasons. I knew I was going to go right at that; because I want to know what the personal reason was without going into so much, give me a sense of what the topic was here: The passing of a parent, parent about to die, going through a bad divorce. Everyone gets that but, left due to personal reason, I was bored. That’s a different level of respect.
Ann
Right! Right, so I think that the more you can offer, the better the interviewer can consider your resume. And I just went through for a position we’re interviewing for 20 resumes. By the time they’re going through 20 resumes, you really need somebody to jump out for a particular reason. And it was interesting to me when I narrowed it down, that the reason those resumes stuck out is they had great experiences that matched what we’re looking for; and also showed progressive advancement in their career. Those are some of the things that really matter when you’re screening resumes, and as much as you try and be very attentive to every single detail in that resume, I think your point earlier, Jeff is a really important one. By the time you get to resume number 20, you’re almost fatigued and exhausted. So you’re looking at those opening paragraphs, the current role, what’s outstanding in that resume, and that’s in the first path, if not the first page of the resume.
If you’re interested in more, if they’ve caught your attention there, then you move through and look at the rest of their experience, but having something that grabs the attention right out of the box is excellent. It’s very, very valuable, not only for the online systems where they’re matching keywords, and it’s a computer but for the individual who’s now received the top 20 resumes and is looking through the actual documents. Have something there that catches my eye, catches my attention so that it compels me to read more.
Jeff
I’m curious about something because you spoke about 20 resumes, I’m sure you got 200 responses easily. So the system is narrowing it down to 20, am I correct?
Ann
Correct!
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Jeff
Yeah. So you’re getting the top 20 is identified by the applicant tracking system, they’re forwarded to you. And now folks, you probably have heard recruiters take six seconds to look at a resume, Ann may take nine. I used to take three to four. She actually may read them, I would skim them. And all I was looking for were key elements that vaguely related to the role for me to decide whether to go further and actually read it. It sounds like you’re in much the same thing. So this is how much time you have to work with. And notice how earlier I said, make it easy for the hiring manager, make it easy for the executive recruiter or the junior recruiter to spot it fast because otherwise delete, delete. That’s the truth of it.
I wish it were different, but no one has time these days to read everything. Interesting.
So how did you narrow the 20? I’m going to use this as a wonderful teaching part for folks. So you got the 20 resumes there. The system narrowed down from the more than 200 you probably got, how did you personally reduce the numbers to a manageable eight?
Ann
Sure. It’s a great question. So the first thing that I use to narrow it down was experience matching to the role that we’re seeking. And some people, their experience just didn’t gel with it. They were successful in what they were doing, but they were missing some of the key experiences that we know we need in this role, so that was the first and that’s almost an easier one.
The next thing that I really paid a lot of attention to was their longevity and their different roles. And so the ability to pull out those short stint people is, unfortunately, it is something that’s easy to pull somebody out of that mix. Then as I narrowed it down, I was really starting to look for the match in either the industry or experienced that was clearly related to what we were searching for in the role.
And when somebody has already done the role or something similar that really pushed them up to the top of the list. So somebody that was showing that progressive growth, they were matching with the experience that they have. Even if it was in a different industry and the people that were at the top or matching industry, matching experience. And those are the people that as we’re going into the interviews, I’ll probably be more favorably predisposed to them as well because in my perception, they are more likely to be the right candidate. Now, I have to always step back and make sure I am not allowing my perception to get in the way of missing a great candidate. And that’s important for interviewers that you step back, and really pay attention to who is showing up for the interview, not who you saw on the paper; because the person you’re hiring is the real person in the flesh, not the wonderful resume that they managed to pull it together.
Jeff
Great lesson for folks. Thank you. Now, I want to come to phone interviews; because we did videos, and we talked a little bit about in-person. Why should someone prepare for a phone conversation, a phone interview when, “Hi, this is Ann Baum from”, so how should they be prepared at that time when the phone rings?
Ann
Well, again, you want to do all of your regular preparation for an interview. Just because it’s a phone interview doesn’t mean it’s any more casual or less important. And many companies are using a phone interview as a screening tool. It may be the one you need to be most prepared for as far as your answers.
A few things to really think about, make sure that you, I’m assuming this is scheduled time, find a quiet place. Make sure that the noise in the background is minimized. Try to start your sentence with a word of this sentence, not, uh, so, uh, that is annoying in person even more amplified when you’re on the telephone; and don’t have anything but that person’s voice to work with.
If you think about people that you speak to on the phone that you’ve never met, you are automatically creating a picture of them in your mind. Think about how your voice, the tempo, the words that you’re using, and the way you’re answering, how those reflect who you really are, and the best version of you. And that’s something I would also practice with other people, practice your phone voice, make sure it’s the very best that you can deliver.
Jeff
And folks, one thing I’ll always mention to people as they’re growing and organizations, there’s a great organization to practice with, practice your speaking, called Toastmasters. If you do a search of Toastmasters, no I’m not being paid a commission by them. I’m a former member twice, and I’ve interviewed people from Toastmasters for the show. I’ll just simply say that it gives you a chance to practice extemporaneous speaking and formal speaking, which will serve you professionally, both in interviews and in the workplace as well, so consider membership in Toastmasters. It’s very inexpensive and a great support environment where we get feedback that will help you improve all your communication style. And one thing I’ll mention is most clubs on a weekly basis will have what’s called an um- counter, who will count the number of times you will say um in the course of this, and you will be surprised by how frequently you may be saying it. So this is terrific. I just have a couple more things I’d love to cover with you.
Ann
Certainly!
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Jeff
Thank you. I hope you’re enjoying this.
Ann
Absolutely.
Jeff
So advice for job hunters, advice for people in their career, what suggestions? Cause you’re a veteran individual. You’ve seen a lot of people grow, you’ve seen a lot of people crash and burn. And judging by that reaction, maybe more people crash and burn and grow. What sort of advice do you have for people about how to grow in their career and avoid some of the mistakes that people are prone to make?
Ann
One of the things I think is incredibly helpful is to find mentors, and that can be somebody within your workplace, it can be somebody in your community. And a mentor is somebody that really helps you uncover the best parts of you and pushes you to develop. This is a mutual relationship. And I think mentors are incredibly valuable to help you grow in your career. And most people, when you reach out to them and ask for their advice, they’re very willing to offer it. Now, one thing I would say, if you are constantly reaching out to people for their advice and then not following up on the advice, eventually they will stop giving the advice. So that’s where, when you said the crash and burn, it made me think of people who are constantly asking for advice, but never 34:11 [Inaudible]I think that’s an incredibly important thing.
You can also reach out for professional coaching. I think it’s a great investment, especially, yes, especially as you are looking to take that next step in your career. Oftentimes there are skillsets that you need to develop and you need that professional training, professional coaching to get there.
And the third piece I would offer is building relationships within your company with people that can become a sponsor of yours. And I heard a great saying, and I really liked it, ‘the mentor talks with you, a coach talks to you and a sponsor talks about you’. And I really love the combination of all three of those where you’re learning from your coach, your mentor becomes your confidant, that advisor, that trusted advisor; and a sponsor is somebody who, when a job is opening up in your company, they’re thinking of you and you are coming to mind when they see a great next step within the company. Those are three things that I think can really make a huge difference in your career.
Jeff
I agree wholeheartedly, particularly that coaching thing.
Ann
Of course!
Jeff
Advice for recent grads, or soon to be recent grads about landing that next job and avoiding some of the pitfalls of interviews? Just want to make sure you speak to them too.
Ann
I think the biggest thing for recent grads is don’t give up. I know many recent grads that had their job lined up and that job has fallen through or been delayed. That doesn’t mean you can’t be out there looking for other opportunities and I encourage you to do so.
One thing about the current environment is people that otherwise wouldn’t be accessible, senior executives, whether it’s family, friends, neighbors, people that you intern before, they’re actually more available. They’re not flying on planes, they’re not traveling the world, and they’re not stuck in a boardroom for their meeting. They’re generally home and they’re available for zoom meetings, phone meetings. I encourage you to reach out to people that you know, and those people will refer you on to others.
I know between my husband and me, we’ve had many of the friends of families contact us and we’re happy to listen to folks, give them advice and connect them with other people we know. So don’t give up just because the opportunity that you thought was going to be your lifetime career fell through. Get out there, keep talking to people, make those connections, and build that network. It will pay off in the long run.
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Jeff
A follow up to that; for the person who’s trying to reach out outside of their immediate network to a stranger. Are they calling the organization to try and find out how to reach that person leaving voicemail? How does someone do that? Whether it during these times or in general, so they can expand their network and tap someone on the shoulder going help, “I could use some, help advice, anything. What do they do?
Ann
Sure. I think one of the best ways to do it is to get a warm introduction. So if you know somebody who knows somebody and they can make that connection in the introduction, that’s great. If you’re making that cold outreach, one of the ways that I’ve found that I am more receptive to it is via LinkedIn. You can go onto LinkedIn, ask somebody to link in with you and then send them a private message. And I personally am always willing to connect with somebody and hear what they have to say. Especially if it’s a younger person or somebody in a career transition, looking for advice. I am open to that. Not everybody is, but the only way you’ll know is if you ask, and by reaching out and asking you at least have a chance, if you never do it, the answer is always no.
Jeff
Agreed. And this has been terrific. I’m just going to hold this up. Small mistakes, big consequences, the existing book, small mistakes pay consequences for interviews, Ann Corley Baum [B-A-U-M].
How could people find out more about you, the work that you do, order the book, order an advanced copy of the new book? How can people do all of that?
Ann
The books are available at barnesandnoble.com, at walmart.com. Really wherever books are sold and you can find out more about me, @ vision dash accomplished, which is ACC O M P L I S H EV.com
Jeff
Super! And folks all have that link in the show notes. And I’ll be back soon with more. This is Jeff Altman, The Big Game Hunter here to help you with your job search career, managing, and leading workplace-related issues in general.
If you’re interested in one on one coaching, visit my website, the big game hunter.us. You can schedule time for a free discovery call or scheduled time for coaching. I would love to help you. And if you’re listening to this in podcast form, subscribe a no BS job search advice radio is number one in Apple podcasts for job search.
As of this recording, next week will be episode 1900 of the show. And you can also on video watch job search tv.com, where I have almost 10,000 videos available primarily about a job search, but also about hiring, managing, and leading workplace-related initiatives.
Lastly, connect with me on linkedin@linkedin.com forward slash forward slash the big game. Hope you have a terrific day and best of all be great. Take care!
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ABOUT JEFF ALTMAN, THE BIG GAME HUNTER
Jeff Altman, The Big Game Hunter is a coach who worked as a recruiter for what seems like one hundred years. His work involves career coaching, all as well as executive job search coaching, job coaching, and interview coaching. He is the host of “No BS Job Search Advice Radio,” the #1 podcast in iTunes for job search with more than 1900 episodes, and is a member of The Forbes Coaches Council.
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