Food Services Careers Outside the Back of the House |

Being in the back of the house can be tough. Chef Shawn Bucher offers ideas for careers to consider if the kitchen in a restaurant is not right for you. His book, “Food People Management,” is available on Amazon . His first book is “First Timer’s Cookbook and Bakebook: Your First Steps to Great Cooking” 

Food Services Careers Outside the Back of the House |

You may also find “Your Biggest Career Digital Asset” helpful.

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hi this is Jeff all up in the big game
hunter and you're either watching job
search TV or listening to no BS job
search advice radio I likes to spend
some time daily talking about some
aspect of life the universe everything
helping you find work more quickly
because to me it doesn't have to be as
hard difficult painful or take as long
as it does just a completely different
skill set to find a job than do a job
and from time to time I bring people on
the show who have an expertise that I
don't have and today we have chef Zhang
Liu Shan Shan is a food service
consultant than the owner of multiple
food-related businesses with more than
25 years of experience he's the author
of the first-timers cookbook and baked
book and his latest book food people
management Shan thank you for making
time today I appreciate oh my pleasure
so how did you get into killing our
yards food services what's your story
about this well I definitely took in a
very non-traditional approach you know a
lot of people really know that's what
they want to do and they move right into
and for me it was very different because
I really like to create I like to do
things with my hands I like to step back
and say wow I made that and in high
school I had taken all the art classes I
whether it was ceramics or drawing or
painting or whatever and my guidance
counselor said you know you ought to
look at a trade college it's just up the
road we'll pay for it you get high
school credit college credit and I
thought yeah why not so I'd looked
through the course catalog and in there
it had culinary art so it was like well
perfect it's an art class I'll be doing
watermelon carvings and ice sculptures
this is gonna be great obviously I get
in there the first day and the
instructors like okay time for lunch for
200 people in the next three hours and I
thought oh man what did I get myself
into but I ended up being good at it I
ended up sticking with it and you know
through the course of that I was able to
move into apprenticeships and and work
in different aspects of the industry and
kind of figure out where I wanted to end
up and you know that's that's very
untraditional a lot of people they kind
of go into one thing and they stick
there for a little while and for me I
know I just knew myself I needed to jump
around to a few things and really see
where it was that I was gonna fit and
essentially said I have friends in the
restaurant business in New York you know
owners of great restaurants Executive
Chefs of former executive chefs of great
restaurants so I always think about a
restaurant and thus when I was talking
to someone new and dear to me about his
interest in culinary arts my son and
trying to help him into a jewelry
program I introduced him to one of the
chefs and he offered some guns but now
he's out of school and thinking about
yeah there's other stuff I might rather
do than just be up till 2:00 in the
morning every night right yeah it's it's
it can be brutal I mean that that's a
big part of really what changed for me
now I spent I spent 12 years in
operations day in and day out you know
working every night weekend holiday you
know and really just spending the the
60-plus hours on my feet at 29 I had
that back surgery and I really that kind
of changed things for me I had to
recreate myself I had to go back to
school I had to finish degrees and
things because I just I had to find a
new role within the industry that wasn't
gonna force me to be on my feet all day
every day plus I was starting a family
and I wanted to be there for them and
not have to just be working all the time
so for you it became you know health
issues that sought to take you out of
the kitchen that was kind of the initial
catalyst and that was I had been
thinking about it for a long time I had
tried to get out of the business a few
times I tried to get into real estate in
2008 and obviously we know what happened
in 2008 it just wasn't meant to be but
but you know the the underlying thing
here was that I was always very
passionate about this industry I was
passion about food I was passionate
about cooking I was passion about
and that's where I ended up moving to is
getting out of the day-to-day in the
kitchen and moving into an instructor
role so I I talked culinary school for a
few years and that led into consulting
which essentially is educating and
that's kind of where it's led me to
today and when students go to a culinary
school are they kind of like my son with
the expectation of going into a
restaurant or are they really thinking
about the breadth of the industry and
they're just shocked into what its gonna
actually really be like yes
there is I think there's a lot of deer
in the headlights kind of reactions that
that when the students come in that the
problem is is you know when I got in
this business twenty-five years ago it
was not quite as glamorous as it is now
chefs weren't the rockstars then that
they are now and so there were there's a
perception among a lot of young people
especially that I'm gonna get in this
business and people are gonna just you
know fawn all over me and and it's gonna
be nothing but fun and you know I'm
gonna be creative all the time the
reality is is it's still a brigade
system so you still have to start at the
bottom and work your way up so
regardless of whether you go get a
degree at a culinary school you still
have to prove yourself you still have to
make sure that that's what you want to
do and that's the advice I give to not
only students but just people I run into
is first and foremost figure out if this
is really what you want to do because if
you go and you spend all this money on a
culinary education and then get out and
realize that man this really isn't what
I want to do then you're a little bit
behind the eight-ball now you're saddled
with with debt or you spend all this
money on an education you're potentially
not going to use but if you get in the
kitchen and work as a as a hostess as a
busboy as a server as a cook you know
whatever role or capacity that that you
can get into initially you really get a
sense for what it's going to be because
initially at least there is a lot of
nights weekends and holidays and there
is a lot of proving yourself before you
can move into some of these other
careers I was very for
I recognized that this chefs who really
got ahead had both experience and
education but they also had kind of a
vision of who they wanted to be in what
they wanted to do because they had they
had jumped around a lot they had gone to
hotels or they had gone the restaurants
they had done to country clubs or
hospitals and they had kind of gotten an
overall perspective of what the industry
was and then they were able to craft the
path forward from there and so that's
what I tell young people today or
anybody who even is wanting to change
careers because there's a lot of people
that want to go from being an architect
or an accountant or whatever into being
in food it's a very very different
mindset very very different skill set I
mean just it's very different and so you
get this culture shock initially but if
you've worked in a hotel or worked in a
restaurant worked in some sort of
foodservice outlet you get the pace you
get the hours you get the the the
different demands and then from there
you can kind of craft it the path that
you want to take so if someone were
looking for I'm gonna start with a that
a my best ones looking at fast paced and
then going to slow paced or just looking
at options in general no conversation
that's that's a great point I mean I
think the nice thing about the
hospitality industry is is a
double-edged sword for those of us in it
we're always hiring and we're always
short stuff we can always use more
people and so the chances of somebody
getting into this business are very very
high the the downside to that is
unfortunately in this industry we have a
lot of people that have to work here
versus want to work here you know people
that have very little education or very
little experience in other segments and
so they come to us because they can't
get a job anywhere else and it's very
very difficult as a manager or as
somebody who wants to be in this
business to manage people who have to be
there versus want to be there it's a
very very different mindset very
different to motivate people who feel
like they're trapped and so if you're
wanting to get in the industry the great
news is is that there's tons of
opportunities and lots of ways to get in
what I would say is that you don't know
what you don't know so take what you can
get and then kind of do that due
diligence while you're there if you get
in as as a dishwasher even part-time
you're gonna see what other people are
doing in the kitchen or in the
establishment and you're gonna be able
to say you know my skills I can do this
but my skill set is really that maybe I
like that more I've had tons of people
that say well I want to come in I want
to be a cook but they have these
incredible dynamic personalities and
they really don't want to work the hours
that some of the cooks have to work and
so they they gravitate more towards the
front of the house and they gravitate
more towards taking care of people and
interacting with guests others get into
it thinking well if I just want to work
part-time and I don't I don't want to
have to put in the hours but I also
don't want to deal with people and so
they they end up getting yeah as a as
maybe a busser or something but then
moving more towards the back of the
house because they don't have to deal
with people but those are things that
you don't really know about yourself
until you're put into certain situations
I was the type of person initially that
did not want to manage conflict I did
not want to get into sticky situations
where I was having to leave her either
compensate guests or I was having to
apologize for somebody's mistakes I was
the guy that wanted to just hide in the
back but what I realized was that the
more I dealt with conflict and the more
I I was able to work through those
things the better i got at it and then i
started to gravitate more towards
management and more towards some of the
front-of-the-house operations so your
your career is always going to evolve
you're always going to start somewhere
and probably end up somewhere else
there's very very few of us that are
gonna stay in the same role or stay in
the same skillset or mindset that whole
time because as we grow and develop our
careers will grow and develop with us so
my suggestion or my advice to anybody
getting in is just get in just start and
then you'll kind of be able to see where
you want to go from there but the great
thing is is that there's a lot more
opportunities today than there ever was
before so for the person he's
the culinary program so they've gotten
the the interest in the field they've
done their externship and they now
discovered I'm not sure which one is
really right for me what do they do with
all this well that's that's a great
question and I think more people today
are in that boat like I said the great
news is is that there's a lot of options
you know food writing has become very
very big we have a cultural shift from
you know when I got this business it was
the Wizard of Oz nobody cared what was
behind the curtain just as long as food
came out and it tasted okay nowadays the
presentation of it and making Instagram
Abal is almost more important than the
taste in some cases because people eat
with their eyes first and that's the
society we live in we're sharing food
where we're sharing pictures of what we
were sharing where we're at you know and
we're we have this global network that's
very interested in that so you have a
you have a whole different skill set
there whereas if you learn how to cook
you may not be the greatest writer but
now it's almost like if you learn to
cook and you can write you can start a
blog you can start a YouTube channel you
you have all these different mediums to
be able to go and craft a brand or share
a message that that is unique to you
without having to wait for something to
happen you can be very proactive in
making those things happen you've also
got a lot of things happening in a
grocery space right now they the new
term out there is grosser on so you have
grocery stores that are turning more
into restaurants the great thing about
grocery stores is that in a restaurant
setting you kind of end up with that
restaurant bar kind of kind of crowd or
for hours and so you're you're open from
11:00 a.m. until 2:00 a.m.
and somebody's got to cover those shifts
somebody's got to work those hours with
the grocery stores after about 8:00 9:00
p.m. things are things are pretty well
done for and so I know a lot of people
that have migrated more into the grocery
space to have a little bit lesser impact
on those late-night hours but still be
able to still be able to offer
high-quality food now the food that
they're offering is definitely less
a'lamin Newt it's it's more you know
you're filling deli cases you're selling
more things retail but that's a little
bit slower pace than having a ticket
come in and having three minutes to get
it out now you're doing more bulk things
and you're able to do it in a in a
little bit slower setting to where you
don't have quite those you know demands
on you got to get this got to get this
got to get this need food in the window
so those those are a couple of options
there you can even move more into
manufacturing now there's a lot of
opportunities of people actually
manufacturing food and I'll give you an
example I was in Portland yesterday and
there's a well-known ice cream concept
called salt & straw and salt & straw
really built a name for themselves by
doing small batch ice creams well one of
the things they've done to differentiate
themselves is there now packaging that
ice cream and selling it in some of the
specialty markets and in like the
Portland Airport so now they've migrated
from being this the single location
restaurant into being more of a food
manufacturer now they're selling retail
so their business has evolved and that's
created opportunities to where you know
you might have if you first started
working there you might have started off
as a chef creating those initial recipes
and now it's migrated more towards
you're making deals with with buyers on
in these distributing houses again
totally different skill sets but there's
just a lot of opportunity and food
nowadays the that is for those who are
educated and experienced there's a lot
of opportunities that aren't the
traditional restaurant world you're not
you're not confined to one location you
have the ability to really spread your
wings and flex different muscles and
skill sets so just to be clear I'm going
to back up just the touch and the
virtual setting is that really the hot
bar or their actual restaurants that are
being put into the into the grocery
facility well I have seen actual
restaurants in there that that are doing
table service but I've also seen the
majority of it is
more kind of the fast casual model where
people will walk up to the counter and
place their order and someone will make
it and then and give the two right away
so I tend to think of the Whole Foods
example of you're going over your papa
you say I want these four items in my
stir-fry exactly stir-fries deli
sandwiches those are all burritos those
are all you know hot-button items right
now rice bowls noodle bowls and very
customizable because that's that's
really what fast-casual is about is a
higher-quality ingredient that's very
customizable and what kind of cop does
someone make and and what part of the
country would you be answering that
question from well it's you know I have
a little bit different perspective
because I get to go everywhere I get to
go east to west and I see a lot of
different segments in a lot of different
places and that's what I always tell
people the only advantage I have as a
consultant as I just get to see a lot of
things with that experience I would say
that obviously on the coastal regions
you're gonna be making more but your
living expenses are gonna be more also
whereas you know getting more towards
the center of the country and even into
the South your living expenses are gonna
be less but you're also going to be
making a little bit less so right now
for a restaurant manager you're probably
for a single unit you're probably
somewhere in the neighborhood of between
forty and sixty thousand dollars in the
year now that's going to be that's going
to be very generic and that's going to
be kind of based on volumes but that's
kind of just the general forty to sixty
you know one unit management now if you
get into the multi unit management
you're gonna jump up 2030 percent so
you're gonna be closer to that you know
eighty thousand range when it comes to
being that base compensation now
restaurants are very very numbers driven
especially when it comes into multi
units and chains and so a lot of
compensation is based on performance
whether that's a share of profits or you
know by hitting certain labor
cause some food costs you're getting
some sort of incentive there so people
are really incentivizing you depending
on those compensation models you can
make a lot more money I mean I worked
with with a regional chain that
incentivize their managers pretty
heavily to perform and we had managers
that were making almost 50 percent of
their salary and bonuses so if you're
really good at what you do the the limit
on what you can make is is exponential I
mean you can really do very well but the
the downside is there's a lot of
recruiters and a lot of the people that
try to get people into culinary school
they paint this picture that you're
gonna get out and you're going to be
making 80 to $100,000 it's really only
about the top 10% of earners out there
in the restaurant business or making
$100,000 or more that's very it's not
typical in this industry mostly because
the margins are so low you know we
generally go by a thirty percent food
cost thirty percent labor cost thirty
percent overhead and that only leaves
that ten percent of profit and so that
that's really hard to pull a lot of
money out of that you know with those
margins it's funny a friend of mine I
mentioned to you the other day was an
executive chef at a restaurant and at
the point he's in his sixties now and
there had been a celebrity chef for
quite some time and with that he still
wasn't quite able to retire it was not
until they had a second business where
he was given equity in that that private
equity moved in on that he was able to
get the money to be able to live the
life that he wanted outside of the back
of the house so I get it
that's very and unfortunately it's very
typical it's you know it's something
that people always ask me would you want
to do your own restaurant I've I've had
my own restaurant I've had a franchise
and I've been on both sides of the coin
there and it for me seeing what I've
seen I love being able to create
restaurants but I would not own my own
restaurant again as long as I have to
and on it for income because the
business is so fickle and is so
challenging it just makes it very very
difficult to to be able to make ends
meet now
what I've seen out there kind of going
along the lines of your friend is yes
when chefs start getting into their
later 50s and early 60s and retirement
and benefits start becoming very very
important and we're seeing a shift
earlier people are starting to get wiser
to that earlier now and demanding the
benefits that that they need as far as
retirement and health care and so what I
see is a lot of times those chefs when
when they're done making a name for
themselves when they're done with the TV
appearances and they're done with the
the competitions and the awards they're
ready to more for kind of that
retirement pre retirement lifestyle will
say they move more into hospitals they
move more into healthcare they move more
into corporate roles where it's not as
demanding of them day in and day out
they they can kind of step back they can
make a little bit better living and they
can really have those benefits to to
fall back on and and honestly truth be
told that's kind of where I ended up at
29 after having my back surgery and
realizing that healthcare was never
gonna get cheaper my family was only
going to get bigger which meant it was
gonna get more expensive and I was going
to need more time and so I needed to
find a way to do that and that was why I
gravitated more towards the larger
corporations they were they had more of
that stability and those benefits so
we've been generally speaking about
management jobs with a couple of
exceptions for someone who means into
corporate space or government or
hospitals what kind of roles exists for
them in those areas that's a great
you know again talking about adapting
your career and evolving and creating
something totally different I know a lot
of chefs that have actually moved out of
the kitchen and it moved more into like
vice-president roles and kind of
overseen multiple departments especially
within either hotels or or hospitals
there's these multifaceted positions
that pay more and have more of that
quality of life once you prove yourself
and I was tell people this when it comes
to management if you can manage this
then you can move to managing this then
you can move to managing this but don't
start here you've got to start here and
and a lot of corporations have that same
mentality that if you can run a kitchen
and food service very very well then
chances are you can run other
departments and other facilities while
also and you know that's the advantage
of food services food service is so
multifaceted I mean not only are we
we're a manufacturing business because
we're creating food and sending it out
we're retail business because we're
selling products retail a lot of times
in some of those spaces we have to know
marketing so we become kind of these
marketing entities of branding ourselves
and creating some of these things we
have to know logistics we have to know
cost of goods sold we we have to know
all these general business principles
but we have to do it in a setting with
product that's perishable employees that
aren't always the highly trained skilled
employees you know a lot of times it's
people are out of the street so we're
having to do a lot of different things
kind of with our hands tied behind our
backs and so I see a lot of chefs that
once they really learn all these
principles in Excel in the kitchen they
move into some of these other areas like
housekeeping or like in hospitals they
live in housekeeping to live into
patient transport they'll move into you
know some of the scheduling and
telephone departments and and they kind
of look at it and they take all this
stuff on and people go wow how do you
take all this stuff on and and really
it's just like running a kitchen you
know you're having to run the front of
the house stuff you're having to run the
back of the house stuff you're having to
worry about you know the distributor
coming in on time and bringing your
deliveries you're having to worry about
all these different things and so
managing all these departments is a very
very similar skill set so a lot of a lot
of chefs actually move out of the
kitchen and into these upper echelon
roles that are are more than
just food a lot of times and and you
know you can do that with larger
companies larger companies I've found
and especially even the government with
the VA hospitals in the in the different
system there if you're good at your job
and you prove yourself they will give
you one two three even four more
departments one of my clients recently
not only was he running food service he
was the director of a food service but
he was also the director of HR canned
concurrently so that's a very different
skill set running HR and food service
all at the same time but because of his
success in his dedication he was able to
do it and he was able to be compensated
very well for it so for the person who
was in your classes when you were
teaching and suddenly they wake up on
day and go holy cow this is not exactly
what I thought it was what did they do
next because I know they didn't go into
running a hospital and their food
service now they may have had a
six-month course at that point what do
they do next well that's a great
question you know and that's that's the
challenge the challenge is you know what
do I do if this isn't really what I want
to do and I think you know that I don't
think that's primarily a food service
challenge I mean in this setting it
definitely is I think most people come
to a realization sometimes later in life
that maybe this really isn't what I want
to do and I want to change careers I
mean my father-in-law was one of them he
he became he went from working in in
companies computer and and manufacturing
facilities into nursing and he became in
there a nurse later on in life and it's
very passionate about it and wishes he
had found it sooner but I think in food
service for those people that get in and
they start down that path you know I was
told to get in I go to culinary school
what I always tell people is you know
start start here and grow here so if if
you want to go to school go to a trade
college where your bills gonna be two
three four thousand dollars not fifty
sixty thousand dollars don't get
straddled with all this debt from the
get-go because you're gonna get out and
make 10 12 bucks an hour and how do you
five paying $1,000 a month in student
loans on 10 12 bucks an hour you just
can't and so you know I what I my advice
for anybody who gets in that situation
is to you can either be proactive or
reactive to be proactive which is ideal
you know get that little base level of
experience get kind of the introductory
education make sure that's what you want
to do if it's not then you kind of cut
your losses and move on and you're able
to do it without a lot of harm done or a
lot of time wasted or a lot of money
spent if you if you go down that path
and you spend a lot of money and you
kind of have to react you can still find
different opportunities out there
there's a lot of people food brokers for
example food brokers are always looking
for people to come work trade shows and
and kind of sell their products so maybe
maybe you don't have the skill set of
cooking on the line really really
quickly but you're very personable and
you want to you want to sell stuff well
you can go work for Simplot or Tyson or
you know these big manufacturers or any
one of these brokers that that kind of
represents their products and travel
around and do some of that there's a lot
of different options out there for you
to to look at you kind of just have to
step outside the box though and and you
know realize that there are
opportunities you just have to network
and ask around about them because the
more you network regardless of whether
it's this business or another one you're
gonna find opportunities or they're
gonna find you so feed brokers is one
option we appealing at trade shows or
you're that person at the store who's
prepping food for a pond try a little
taste of such as such I have that right
absolutely that's I mean there's
opportunities there you can go work for
food distributors and essentially take
customers orders so Cisco u.s. foods you
know those are kind of the big main
distributors for food but they they have
tons of opportunities all the time you
can do everything from working in the
warehouse to stocking food
to being out on the street selling food
to the customers gotcha
and I'm wondering I'm asking for selfish
reasons and I'm saying that folks you
don't know this my son is just
completely killing every program so let
me just step in here with that to make
it clear why I'm digging a little deeper
here so you can plead a program you
decide a restaurants not for you
food brokers is one option you know food
manufacturers food distributing food
writing you know food testing there's
there's always opportunities for people
to to test products and be kind of like
Quality Assurance people you know they
those aren't always the highest paying
jobs but it's a great alternative to
kind of the grind of the restaurant
business and then there's a of course
the YouTube star who's prepping food for
a market showing people how to do it
anything else that I haven't asked about
that I should well you know I think
anybody who is either looking to get in
this business or looking to improve
their skill set the biggest things that
I would suggest is is again really
learning your craft because the two
things that I see continually throughout
my business and throughout helping my
clients is that you neither have
regardless of the food business whether
it's a food truck or a grocery store or
restaurant or hotel whatever it is you
either have business people that don't
really know food their food just sucks
they're just it's terrible but they make
a ton of money people are not going to
go back there that's not going to become
a hot spot if the food is not great or
the service is not very consistently so
what I would suggest the people is find
a way to blend your passion for food and
your talent and your knowledge with a
way to make money with it now if you
don't want to work those hours there's a
lot of different ways of going about
that you know you go work for some of
these these companies whether they're
food manufacturers or equipment
manufacturers or rep agencies or
brokers there's a lot of different
opportunities within that whether it's
just working in an office or running
samples to customers or taking orders I
mean there's there's a lot of different
options there that allow you to be in
food but not necessarily of food is kind
of the way I like to say it but the key
to all that is really networking
building your network going to trade
shows volunteering your time for
different events going out meeting
people working with people because the
more you do that the more you'll be
aware of what opportunities are out
there and where you might fit into all
of that
thank you Shawn how can people find out
more about you by the book all that sort
of stuff well you can the best way to
look at me up is probably business chef
George that's the website for the
podcast that we run you can also look up
first-timers cookbook com
that's that's another option there or
you can find me on on any of the social
media Instagram and Facebook where it
make food make money we are on Twitter
chef Shawn B you can find me on LinkedIn
at chef Shawn Boucher so yeah absolutely
reach out to me I'd love to help I'd
love to be able to impart any wisdom or
guidance or make connections for you but
yeah I'm all about helping people in
this industry because I think the the
stronger we make each other in this
industry the stronger our industry
becomes and spj be uch your folks
yes sha WNDU CAGR Shawn thanks for
making time and folks I'll be back soon
with someone else and more podcasts and
videos to help you land work i'm jeff
open the big-game hunter if you're
interested in my working with you one on
one as a coach reach out to me through
my website the big-game hunter on us
I've got thousands of posts there more
than 7000 as of this recording that you
can watch listen to me to help you find
work I hope you have a great day and
take care


Jeff Altman, The Big Game HunterJeff Altman, The Big Game Hunter is a coach who worked as a recruiter for what seems like one hundred years. His work involves career coaching, as well as executive job search coaching, job coaching, and interview coaching. He is the host of “No BS Job Search Advice Radio,” the #1 podcast in iTunes for job search with more than 2200 episodes.

Are you interested in 1:1 coaching, interview coaching, advice about networking more effectively, how to negotiate your offer or leadership coaching? Schedule a discovery call at my website,

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