Finding Career Fulfillment, Happiness and Satisfaction Again
Too often, people struggle through life feeling unfulfilled, angry, and tuned out. In this interview, Alicia Ramsdell and I speak about regaining it again (or find it if you’ve never had it. This is a link to the 4 quadrants download Alicia mentioned.
Jeff Altman 00:04
So my guest today is Alicia Ramsdell. Alicia is the founder and CEO of Mindful Career Path, where she sets the vision and guides clients to develop their career stories in a mindful, enthusiastic way. Coinciding with her own daily meditation practice, she brings a unique holistic approach to career coaching. Prior to launching Mindful Career Path, she gained career development experience as a 15-year corporate industrial professional, where she co-lead undergraduate students in their internship experience, participated in the hiring process for employees, and pioneered a career development program for young professionals. Leisha welcome. Thanks for making time today.
Alicia Ramsdell 00:52
Absolutely. Anytime I can give no BS job advice. I’m in.
Jeff Altman 00:56
Yeah! You’re part of the program. There we go. So for many people, they’re feeling miserable or tuned out or disengaged. There used to be a lot of good days that they would talk about where they were excited to talk about your day, or about their day. But now they’re kind of miserable and tuned out. So can there really be career fulfillment, satisfaction, and happiness again? And we know the answer is, of course, because that’s the purpose of this show today– helping people reconnect again. So I understand you were your first coaching client? How did you start pulling it together again, and find the right way for you?
Alicia Ramsdell 01:44
This is my favorite question. So if you had asked me, in my previous professional lifetime, is career fulfillment, even possible, I would have said maybe. I would have said, you know, career fulfillment could be possible. But that can’t coincide with job security that can’t coincide with the big paycheck. And I really didn’t think that you could wake up every day, go into work, do what you love, and also reap the financial and job security benefits. Now, fast forward to today. Like you mentioned, I’ve had the corporate America experience. I’m the owner of my own career coaching business, I know that career fulfillment is, is attainable. It’s just putting in that time putting in that energy to seek out what that actually means to a specific individual. And as you mentioned, the storyline here is where I came from, right, I was at a point in my corporate America life, that I wasn’t feeling what I thought I should be feeling at that point. So what I started to do was, I started to look back and say, ‘All right, when I come home, and I want to talk about my day, and I’m really excited to share about this great thing that happened to work, what’s the common theme throughout all of those stories.’ And for me, personally, it wasn’t the accounting and tax work that I was doing. Right, it was the . . . when I had the opportunity to work in a career development setting with the college interns that came through our company, our department, when I was developing careers for students in my higher education classes as an adjunct professor, that’s when I was excited to come home and talk about my day. And from there, I pivoted and transitioned into my role now. But it took time and energy to really hone in on what do those responsibilities actually mean?
Jeff Altman 03:33
Interesting. And if somehow you engaged in a process with yourself, that helps you figure it out . . . Yeah. And I noticed accounting and tax just doesn’t feel exciting. What a surprise! And working with people did, but how did you ultimately sort it out. Did you create a process that helped you, helps you and now you’re using to help other people?
Alicia Ramsdell 04:02
Yeah, it was really a two step process. So what I did is, and it’s known as the four quadrant exercise, I completed a four quadrant exercise for myself. But then the second step, which is probably the most important is aligning it to actual job descriptions. And I can walk through that process with you. If you want me to go step by step.
Jeff Altman 04:20
Of course. That’s what you’re here for. Exactly, exactly.
Alicia Ramsdell 04:25
Whether whether you’re a college student, right and you go through coursework and or internships, or you’re a professional 15 years in, we’re all working towards something, right? And let’s take that something, whatever that something is, and make it meaningful. So an exercise that I run through, that I ran through with myself, but now with clients is known as the four quadrant exercise. And the learning objective here is really when we complete this exercise, we’re going to be able to identify and then connect the areas where we’re knowledgeable, successful, and or want to learn more about right now. Where do we want to put the time and energy in our careers. And this resource is available on my website. So we can certainly put that in the show notes later. But let’s take a walk through this exercise and see what it actually looks like. Imagine a piece of paper, right, and you break it into four squares, right? And then that top left square, what I ask my clients to do is write down areas or responsibilities. . . Again, it could be coursework, it could be internship, it could be your actual professional job. Where do you like what you do and you’re knowledgeable in? You’re that go to expert. And if that’s the top left quadrant. The second quadrant is on the bottom left. And in that bottom square, I asked my clients to write down areas where they want to do more of, but don’t necessarily have that knowledge base yet, right? And these really . . . you can take away from these . . . They become the learning opportunity or those exploration topics to devote more time to, right?
Jeff Altman 06:01
So that supports the assisting career and what you do there? Am I interpreting correctly?
Alicia Ramsdell 06:09
Absolutely, yes. And so now, like you said, everything on this left side are areas where you can communicate to management, to leaders, to teams that you want to be a part of right and raise your hand and get more involved. And so now, not only do you know that this is what you want more of, but also you’re surrounding network is going to know that this is what you want more of because you’re communicating this out loud. And they’re going to seek you out for these types of opportunities for these types of projects for these types of job opportunities moving forward.
Jeff Altman 06:44
Gotcha. So the left is the current environment, what you’d want to do more of, what you have to be good at, and the growth edges there. So you can sort it out for yourself, share it with others, to engage your organization to find more of that for you.
Alicia Ramsdell 07:04
Exactly. That’s the piece that’s going to bring you fulfillment. And then the opposite side, right. So now we’re looking at the right side of this piece of paper, I would ask clients in that top right square to write down, maybe you have knowledge in an area, but you’re not specifically enjoying doing that. And I always relate this back to maybe you’re really good with advanced Excel formulas, for instance, but you don’t enjoy sifting through data and creating these Excel spreadsheets, right. So that’s an area if you if you’re in a career for example. That’s an area where a client can offer up training right to other colleagues, to mentees, to interns, or to people that actually want to thrive in that area. So that they can now train them, use your knowledge, train them, that helps the organization and then in a sense, pass it off, right? Delegate it after that point. And then the bottom right, where the last of it is, I aske my clients ‘write down any areas that you don’t really particularly feel knowledgeable in, and don’t care to learn more about.’ And these are areas that you just plain old want to delegate, right. There’s no training opportunity. You’re not seeking that out. And again, everything on this right-hand side is areas that you’re not going to raise your hand for. You’re going to look to others around you to thrive in those areas and seek them out to complete it right? Know where you’re good, know where you’re not good, and build a team around you to make you, that team, and overall the organization more effective.
Jeff Altman 08:38
And it serves you because fundamentally, you’re training others and in fact, outsourcing certain functions to other people and punting in effect with work that you don’t like doing. It just doesn’t serve you in some way. And then you’re identifying areas where in no way shape or form, do you want to ever, ever be involved with this with some alleged growth edge again. True?
Alicia Ramsdell 09:13
True, and don’t get me wrong, anybody is going to go into a job and they’re not going to like 100% of the responsibilities they have to do. Inevitably we’re gonna have to do some tasks or responsibilities that we don’t love and that’s okay. That’s, you know, let’s call that like the 80-20 rule. As an example, 20%, you know, you have to do it. Might not love it, but they have to do as part of the role. But if you’re at that 80% or somewhere around there, you should feel pretty good about your current situation.
Jeff Altman 09:40
There are certain things that no matter what you say, no matter what you do, comes with a job. That’s just the way it is. It’s the issue of if it’s 50-50, how do you start adjusting, recalibrating the role to help you . . . actually serve the organization better as well as serve yourself better. Because I know how it is with me. If I’m resistant to doing something, I just don’t do it well. I procrastinate, put it off, defer, punt, whatever it is, I’m going to try and get rid of it. And I suspect judging by your answer, and the smile, you’re the same way, to
Alicia Ramsdell 10:28
100%. And this style of exercise, right, this four quadrant exercise is not only helpful when you’re starting the journey of seeking career fulfillment, but it can also make a big impact during, let’s say, your in your performance evaluations, right during one on one meeting with leadership, building your brand, building that core message that you want to put out into the universe. And people then know, ‘okay, this is what Alicia wants. So this is what Jeff wants. We have these new projects coming in. Jeff would be a great person to help co-lead this, to lead this or to support this, right?’ Or if you’re seeking a job. You know, I just spoke with Alicia and she’s a part of my network. And she was saying that these are the types of responsibilities that she’s looking for. She would be a great candidate, at least to have an initial conversation with.
Jeff Altman 11:17
Gotcha. So you’ve got these definitions that work for you and don’t work for you. And as you said, there’s a step two behind this. That’s really the juicy stuff.
Alicia Ramsdell 11:33
Yes. And part two, again, like you just you hit the nail on the head. This is where , what is it, the rubber meets the road, that’s the right word. But in this exercise, you want to take that four quadrants step, and you want to align it, all that feedback, with what you are either currently doing or potentially want to do. So let’s take this for example. Let’s say you have the four quadrant exercise complete, you’re in your career, what I want you to do is take that exercise, and then compare it side by side with your current job description. And when you read your current job description, just the responsibility section. Next to each responsibility, once you read it, I want you to say, ‘Does this align with the left side of that four quadrant exercise, if it does put a plus sign next to it. If it doesn’t, put a minus sign next to it. And when you’re done with it, I want you to look back and say, ‘Okay, what’s the percentage of alignment from my job description to my four quadrant exercise,’ and continuing with this 80-20 theme, if you’re at 20, you know, doing things in your responsibilities that I like to do, and I want to do more, I would say that’s a pretty good indicator of career fulfillment. But on the flip side, if you were at 20, doing things that either you don’t really have the knowledge in or don’t care to learn more about, that’s a sign that you need to start to be more energized and put more time into figuring out what would make the career fulfillment and where could you raise your hand to do certain projects, and to gain more of the stuff you want to do want to learn more of, and have the knowledge?
Jeff Altman 13:14
it’s interesting, because, you know, I think there are a lot of jobs that are structured in a way where people will be looking more at the right column than the left column, where the primary responsibilities weigh more heavily that way. And I hear you talk in terms of working internally, to make the adjustment. And I think that’s always the starting point because they know, like, trust, and respect you. They want to keep employees yada, yada, yada. And I’m wondering for individuals who are, you know, they know the job is really 80-20 the wrong way. Right? How do they start figuring out what to do next, externally, if that’s really what the choice is going to be?
Alicia Ramsdell 14:02
Yeah. Well, that’s a great question. And I want to start with my own experience. So I was in corporate America, I was in accounting and tax, and I had the opportunity to work with a lot of college interns. And when I started to do this style of exercise, this four quadrant exercise, I said, ‘Okay, I know that I like the people management side. I know I like to work with the younger generation. I’d love to see where there are other opportunities that I can, again, raise my hands up. So as an example, when human resources would send out an email to everybody and say, ‘Hey, we have this opportunity where we want the college interns to learn about a day in the life of and then you know, all of the different style of employees and their roles. So I would immediately raise my hand and say, ‘I want to do . . . I would like to do that’ and I continue to do that. So again, if a leader on my team sent her an email and said, you know, we want to do more learning, lunch and learns, right, where we’re having somebody present about something that you know, the rest of the team doesn’t really know much about, I would raise my hand. And I always felt like those were the days when I left the office and I felt the best. It was when I had the opportunity to educate others, and to work with the career development component of the people around me. So that’s just one way is either actively listening to what’s out there in your company, when you know, these company-wide email go out, and raising your hand for those or start to . . . let’s say, I was in accounting and tax and I, and this is part of what I did, if I want to get into it more of a career advising space, what I started to do was I started to network with people that were, you know, University Relations in HR, right, or the people that were hosting the college career fairs, and I had conversations with them. So if you understand what you want, then it’s going out and seeking either people already in those opportunities or actively listening to your surroundings and raising your hand when something clicked.
Jeff Altman 16:11
Gotcha. And it starts internally, again, because that tends to be the path of least resistance, usually, because they already know you and they have a sense of you before you start looking to the outside.
Alicia Ramsdell 16:27
Yeah. And you’re saying, when we’re talking about internally, obviously, within the company, but this same style of exercise can be used externally, right? You can take that four quadrant exercise, and you can say, ‘you know, I’m interested in these types of roles.’ And you can look up a job description, let’s say you wanted to be, you know, a marketing manager, you could look up marketing manager position, whether it’s in a target company or not, and just say, ‘alright, based on this job description, based on my four quadrant exercises, where does the feedback line up? Am I closer to that 80-20?’ And again, I’m just using that as an example, like closer to that 80-20, or am I not? And then continue to pursue job descriptions. Until you find that match, and then from there, you really have conversations, as I said, whether it’s internally at a company in your network, or externally, with people from your alumni group, or otherwise.
Jeff Altman 17:20
It’s interesting. One thing I’m aware of, from my time doing search, is how many people who want to do a transition, and they’re clear about what it is they want to do. But the Learn part– that they want to learn, they’re kind of expecting the next organization to do it for them. And especially the more senior you are, the harder it is to get that, folks, because they’re expecting a more finished product. Not a finished product, but a more finished product to walk in the door, if they’re going to pay you, a manager, and above kind of compensation. Is that your experience with the people that you’re coaching?
Alicia Ramsdell 18:03
Absolutely. And that’s part of the reason why if a client comes to me, and they’re thinking about jumping ship, kind of depending on where they are in their professional career, it might make more sense to stay within an organization, gain certain experience that you can then take with you to explore those opportunities where they want you to be more well rounded in certain areas.
Jeff Altman 18:30
And sometimes it’s possible to do volunteer work to pick up that experience those experiences. Sometimes it’s coursework, to pick up that knowledge that’s needed. This is a nice little model that helps me to formalize certain things I’ve been doing for years. But I’ve never created a model around it. So it’s just a nice little setup that allows people to figure out, ‘okay, this is where–and my language is, ‘This is where I’m world class. This is what I do extremely well. And what I liked, and this is where, again, my language, not yours, this is where there’s a knowledge deficiency I need to fill. And I really want to fill this in order to be able to do it. On the other hand, and then the other hand is Get me the hell away from this.
Alicia Ramsdell 19:24
Exactly. And you bring up a great point, too, about volunteering. Not only does volunteering allow you to gain some potential knowledge areas that you want, but what you’re also doing when you’re volunteering is you’re building your network, right? And then you can then articulate that message, that core message about what you want in the future. So, again, if it’s not staying at your current company. You’re talking to our network, potentially outside of your company, and they know, ‘okay, this is what Jeff wants, and when things come up, and they’re actively listening, they’re going to think of you before somebody else that they don’t even realize you mentioned
Jeff Altman 19:59
Something in passing, I didn’t want to let go by. And that was university alumni groups as being a place to try networking to connect with people who might get you. How does that work?
Alicia Ramsdell 20:15
Yeah, well, I like the University alumni connections. And the reason I like that, because a lot of people say, networking seems icky. It seems a little scary. How do I even start the conversation? Right? So if you are talking to another alumnus, it’s a soft opening. It says, ‘Hi, I see, we’re both you know, I went to Bentley University. I see that we’re both Falcons. I’d love to connect. I know that you’re in this type of role. I’m interested in transitioning my career into a role like that. I’d love to chat and hear about your days since Bentley, right? So with a soccer connection, rather than just ‘hey, I’m someone random, you’ve never met me. Let’s talk.’ So for the people that are timid, I mean, not that would normally sound like that. But I’m just saying for the people that are timid, it allows them that confidence to go in with something that they have in common already.
Jeff Altman 21:06
Yeah, wherever you can grease the skids for yourself and make it easier, rather than fighting to achieve your objective– doesn’t have to be hard, make it easy for yourself. And initially, you’re just having informational conversations with people to confirm you’re thinking about a type of role or a specific role. And you’re learning (Lunch and Learn. We’re back at Lunch and Learns here), where you find out more so that your risk is minimized. Because if you’re changing organizations to do something similar, but complementary, or completely different, you don’t want to take that step and risk failing.
Jeff Altman 21:52
So let’s look at this from a job search perspective. Because we’ve figured out the good stuff, the bad stuff, and or is informational interviewing, really the path for people to go to test their hypothesis of roles? Is it looking at job ads? Is it all of the above? When you’re working with people, and they’re transitioning out of an organization? Where did/where do they tend to find that role beyond simply their current firm?
Alicia Ramsdell 21:52
Alicia Ramsdell 22:25
Right. So going through the style of exercise, what this does is bring people the confidence that they need to start communicating this externally. Let’s say they’re trying to leave their current company, it brings them the confidence. And I think confidence in your message is key. Before even getting out there and networking. Really, the next step for me is making sure that whatever your message is saying, before you even get to a resume, right, whatever your message is that you want to articulate in person or via zoom, or however you’re going to chat, make sure it lines up with your online brand. Because if what you’re saying and your online brands are two totally different things, or even, even just different slightly somehow, right, if I . . . if before, I’ll bring back a personal example, when I was transitioning or trying to transition from accounting and tax to career development, initially, my entire LinkedIn profile had everything to do with accounting and tax rules. But what I started to do was I started to transition my LinkedIn profile to specifically highlight where I was able to work with whoever it was, but at that point college interns, where I was able to work in career development roles. So I wanted to make sure that my messaging aligned and do my voice, but also with my online brand. So that’s, you know, that next step, and then I would really recommend, as we just mentioned, starting with your alumni, and going on LinkedIn, seeing who works in some of your targeted companies, seeing who works in potentially roles that you’re interested in, and having these conversations. Reaching out and having informational interviews. And then from there, if the opportunities exist within your target companies, maybe there are actually open roles at that given time, writing, potentially applying if it’s already open, but if you hear that through your network, conversations that you know, we are growing and eventually down the road, there’s going to be an opportunity like this. Write a personal letter of interest, you know, to the decision-makers, right? Whether that’s a recruiter, whether that’s somebody in the department that you build a connection with, or if you know the hiring manager, all the better, right? Again, you’re trying to get your message out there consistently to as many people of your target audience as you can, and even when we’re sleeping nowadays, our message is working for us if you have it appropriately branded through your online social media profiles.
Jeff Altman 24:52
Oh, you put a smile on my face when you spoke about branding, because frankly, I know so few . . . So many People struggle with the concept of them branding themselves. And it’s not a tag name, like The Big Game Hunter, which I, which I trademarked years ago. It has nothing to do with that. It’s who you are. How you’re seen and perceived. What your reputation is. How you present yourself, so that you can cut the line mentally and get to the front and you’re not just simply another fish in the pond, trying to jump on that one hook through the applicant tracking system. It’s so hard to do with that. That’s why it’s called the black hole.
Alicia Ramsdell 25:39
Jeff Altman 25:42
So the goal from there, what I’m hearing you say, is congruence between your message, the brand, and your social media presence, and how you’re presenting yourself. So then this way, there’s no disconnect. When there’s a disconnect between the two, people scratch their heads, and they go on to the next person, it’s not believable to them. And thus, you have to create a LinkedIn profile. Any other place that you present on social in a way that shows you well, what it is you want to be doing next? Got that? Do I have that? Right?
Alicia Ramsdell 26:23
That’s two thumbs up from my side.
Jeff Altman 26:25
Fabulous. So thus, you know, what I also heard you talk about was talking to people, not applying through the applicant tracking system, although you may be forced to do that later on. But having more conversations, to cut the line and avoid the front door. And, folks, if you’ve seen me at any point, before, you know, I talked about a front door, back door, and a side door. It’s like it’s a nightclub. So the front door is the applicant tracking system that’s got a bouncer. That’s the role of the ATS is to be the bouncer. The back doors where someone slips in. And then the side door is that unique way that gets you attention. And I’m not going to go into the side door now. But we’re first talking about the backdoor that allows someone to bring you in.
Alicia Ramsdell 27:19
Right. So yeah, and I was gonna just add to that is, I think it’s inevitable, we’re going to be applying online, especially for midsize firms and larger firms. It’s inevitable, right? But if you have relationships outside of just, if you have a relationship with somebody within the organization, you could submit or you’re going to submit online your application, but then follow up with the big pieces, following up with the people that you know, or that target. . . the network that you know within that target company and say, ‘Hey, I did go ahead and apply. Thanks so much for our conversation. And I’ve attached my resume. And you could do it in two formats. You can do you know, a human-friendly one, right? So you know, pretty and nice. But then there’s also another style of resume that’s more ATS-friendly, right? That’s hopefully just getting the information in the door. But the human being on the other end, now sees this human-friendly, I call it resume that they can pass along to the right individuals if they enjoyed your conversation and see a fit.
Jeff Altman 28:27
Gotcha. So Alicia, What haven’t we covered yet that we really should? What would really serve the audience well, that we haven’t hit on yet?
Alicia Ramsdell 28:35
Yeah, so I I recently heard an author Mark Lachance, aka, Mr. Lucky, right? And he speaks about success equalling luck. And I hear that a lot like, oh, well, you’re just lucky or, you know, they’re successful. And it’s just it’s all luck. And they knew people, right? But he had . . . Mark Lachance has a book out and it’s called the lucky formula. And I love the breakdown of the definition of this equation. And it’s success equaling internal mastery plus external mastery plus action equals luck. So what’s internal mastery? Think of 20 things that you’re successful at. Add to that your external mastery, which is who are you surrounding yourself with. Who are you learning from? Right? You are the average of the five people that we hang around with most or whatever the thing is, and what are you learning about, right? How are you learning with a book or otherwise? And then action is taking the action to be successful? And if you take all that, that internal mastery, that external mastery and that action, yes, then success and luck are interchangeable. But there’s a lot of time and energy that goes behind that the left component of this, and I say luck in quotes, right? And that’s the same thing that we’re talking about here. Yes, career fulfillment is possible but it’s only possible and attainable if you’re going to put in that time and energy. I don’t know many people that said from day one, they want to be this. And they’re still that at retirement. And if they are, it’s because of one of two things–they did enjoy it, but they worked their butt off while they are, right? And they kept growing as an individual, or they didn’t love it but it was the job security and financial space that they needed for their lifestyle. And I want to say that that’s great. And that’s okay, too. Not everybody necessarily is searching for career fulfillment. They might just say, ‘I need a paycheck, and I need job security.’ And either way, both of those are privileged to have in our lifetime. So whatever anyone chooses works for them. But from my angle, career fulfillment is possible if people want it.
Jeff Altman 30:58
I agree, I’m going to add one thing into that formula, only to make sure it’s said expressly?.And that is, there has to be an answer to the question of who knows about you. Because you could be masterful, you could be wonderful. But if no one knows about you, you’re invisible.
Alicia Ramsdell 31:20
Exactly, exactly. And I think that’s part of the external mastery component, too.
Jeff Altman 31:23
Right. That’s why I want to say it expressly because people somehow think they can stay in their cocoon, you know, their home, their office, and never extend themselves outside to other people, and have individuals suddenly arrive at their doorstep and go, ‘you’re wonderful.’ Doesn’t work that way, folks. You know that. But the idea just becomes, you have to also expressly make sure people know that you’re world-class, that you have this expertise. And not just rely upon them finding your profile on LinkedIn. That’s like the minimum viable product that you have– a LinkedIn profile that tells people about your capabilities.
Alicia Ramsdell 32:09
And I have to admit, though, at what after you put in this time and energy, right, going through this process, it feels like things just start falling out your front doorstep. And sometimes it’s like this is almost in disbelief, that all that time and energy that you put into it actually worked. And you’re like, ‘I can’t believe it. Everything’s just falling into place.’ And you start to second guess that all the work you did was what created it. But it did. And it’s exciting when it starts to happen. Whether that’s you’re a professional in your career, or you’re a business owner, and entrepreneur, or whatever the case may be. But it is fulfillment in more than just your career, I would say closer to life fulfillment.
Jeff Altman 32:54
I agree with you wholeheartedly, heartily. Alicia, this has been fabulous. How can people find out more about you, the work that you do everything, please?
Alicia Ramsdell 33:04
Sorry. So if you go to mindfulcareer path.com Everything is there, my contact information, my social media links, and the services we offer. And I would love it, if you connect with me on LinkedIn, they heard me on the show, and I’d love to hear from you and hear all about your career fulfillment.
Jeff Altman 33:24
And I’ll have a link to where you can find the four quadrants exercise as well in the show notes, too. Alicia, thank you and folks, we’ll be back soon with more. I’m Jeff Altman, The Big Game Hunter. Hope you enjoyed today’s interview if you did and you’re watching on YouTube, or listening to this in podcast form, share it, leave a comment. You know, thumbs up, do something and let people know it was worthwhile. Also I’ll invite you over my website TheBigGameHunter.us, where there’s a ton in the blog that will help you. Plus you can find out about my courses, books, and guides, schedule time for a free discovery call, or time for coaching so I can help you.
Jeff Altman 34:04
Lastly, connect with me on Linkedin at linkedin.com/in/TheBigGameHunter. Have a terrific day and most importantly, be great. Take care.
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