Do you want to interview with the great tech firms?


I am regularly approached by people who want my help with getting interviews with the major tech firms. What do I do? On the show, I interview Kyle Elliott, , MPA, CHES, of CaffeinatedKyle.com about how he coaches and works with people so they wind up with interviews and getting hired by Amazon, Google, Netflix, Facebook, Apple and others.

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So my guest today is Kyle Elliott, the founder and career coach behind, I love this, caffeinatedkyle.com. As a result of working with Kyle, senior managers and executives have landed jobs at Facebook, LinkedIn, Amazon, Google, Microsoft, and nearly every other Fortune 100/500 company you can think of and, best of all, found happiness. Kyle, welcome, how're you feeling today?

I thank you so much for having me. I'm excited to be here.

My pleasure. So we're gonna be talking about fitting into these tech firms as our show for today. So for job hunters trying to get into these firms. I think it's probably true beyond these firms. What were the most common issues facing these job hunters?

The biggest mistake I see with job seekers in general, and particularly in tech, is people fail to stand out. They just blend in with the crowd, particularly in Silicon Valley and high tech where I work, there are tons of applicants. And then the pandemic has made it so there is even more applicants, less jobs available, and people just blend in. So when recruiters and hiring managers are going through resumes and LinkedIn profiles, if your resume or LinkedIn looks like everyone else, you're going to get passed over. So, I'm excited for us today to talk about how do people stand out from the crowds, there resume actually gets picked and put in "the yes pile," so their LinkedIn profile grabs the attention of recruiters and hiring managers that they say, "Oh my gosh, I need to interview you. I need to stop reading all these other resumes. I need to talk to you right now."

So I interpret that as boring.

Mm hmm.

Boring. Yeah, you look like everyone else. You know, what makes you different? And

exactly.

And how does someone do it? Do we have like a list of things that they can do?

So part of it is a list of things that people can do. And part of it is really internal. I think what people struggle with is they want to list. They want to say, "Okay, Kyle, tell me ABC what I can do, and I give you a list of ABC of what I can do, then everyone else is doing it and you're not standing out. So instead, what I encourage people to do is do some reflection. And one of my favorite pieces of reflection is to text three people "what makes me fabulous." So if you're listening to this or watching this, I encourage you to get out your phone, or pull up a messenger app and text three people "what makes me fabulous," so you don't even have to go and turn all the start. If your bare with me and do some deep reflection. You can text a few friends, current or former colleagues, your partner, a family member and say "hey, what makes me fabulous," to get some insights as to what people see sets you apart from everyone else and then ensure your resume, your LinkedIn, when you go to network, when you interview, highlights those things that set you apart because what happens is people say "I've done A. I've done B. I've done C. i was watching actually one of your other podcasts and you're talking about tasks. People focus on all these tasks, but they don't talk about here's what actually sets me apart these objectives, these things that are different about me. So, for everyone watching, I encourage them to text a few people, "Hey, what makes me fabulous," and then in everything that they write and everything they say, highlights that fabulousness.

You know, it's funny, I released a new short Kindle book this week about Answers to Tell Me About Yourself." You know, the classic question. And, you know, I have an easy one, an intermediate one and more advanced one. And the intermediate one starts off the same way as the easy one. Now, this the basic recitation of a background, and then it pivots. But they say, "but what makes me different is and . . . " going into those differences, that allow you to distinguish yourself from every other resume that they're seeing that says the same crap, no matter what your field is.

Exactly. When I write cover letters, I don't rehash the resume. But I instead, I provide a brief intro. And then I say, here's what sets me apart from other candidates, and then have three bullet points for my clients and say, Here's thing one, here's thing two, here's thing three, and then provide two or three sentences, to provide examples and proof. And that's what you need to be doing in your letter, your resume, all your materials, saying, "Here's everyone else, the other hundreds or 1000s of applicants." And then in the second pile, here's me and only me, because you want to decipher yourself from everyone else. I love that word different or unique, really figuring out what sets you apart from everyone else. So you're not comparing yourself to everyone else, you're comparing yourself only to yourself. So it's either you or no one that can do what you do and offer what you offer.

Just give people an example or two of people that you've worked with, and what made them different, so they can hear the kind of personality attributes or other attributes that you highlighted for those folks.

Yeah, so I was recently working with a PR executive. And then he had also been a journalist before. So a lot of PR executives have similar backgrounds. They've worked in house; they'd all work for tech companies. And then he had also been a journalist before, and a lot of PR executives have not worked on the other side. So, highlighting that he had been that set him apart from everyone else. Or in tech, there could be project managers with a logic management. And then if you've from a technical background, software engineer. highlighting. saying a lot of people in project management haven't been an engineer before. Selling that and calling attention to it. And that's really, what sets me apart from project managers is my software engineering background, or what makes me unique, really, using that specific, direct assertive edge.

It's interesting. I think most people think it will be noticed. And they don't have to say it. And don't understand that, whether it's HR or a hiring manager, they're busy. And they've interrupted other things that they're doing to read your stinking resume, or look at your LinkedIn profile. And their mind is elsewhere. And they're multitasking. So calling attention to it becomes quite important, I think, just like you obviously think. So what else can people do to kind of stand out?

Yeah, something else I'm a fan of when it comes to standing out is networking strategically. And we hear networking all the time. What I find everyone does when they network is reaching out through to hiring managers. That's what everyone does. So, their reaction as the recruiter's reading the resume on LinkedIn, the hiring managers, the one hiring, let me reach out to them. And I'm a proponent of not doing that. A lot of the people that I write resumes or LinkedIn profiles for are recruiters and hiring managers, and I log into their LinkedIn profile and they have so many messages. Just in the 30 minutes I'm in there uploading everything, they're getting all these messages, and I can't even keep up with that. I'm like, "Okay, I'm trying to ignore that just updating their summary. And their experience." I'm like, I can't imagine how many messages they get. They're not going to respond to everyone. So I'm a proponent of instead reaching out to people who have your dream role. If you want to be a software engineer at Facebook, contact software engineers at Facebook, and this is for two reasons. First, that software engineer already went through the interview process, and they landed a job there. So they can say, "Here's what, here's what didn't well and give you someone that can. And the second piece is if you hit it off with that software engineer, they can connect you to thehiring manager and talk about a great conversation. IM them. "You should look at his resume," or "you should review him," and then you're circumventing trying to get into that hiring manager's inbox. And I found that this successful because when I go and upload LinkedIn profiles for software engineers, they're getting two or three messages a month. They're not getting two or three messages an hour. So you have a lot better response. rate when you reach out to them.

The goal there becomes contacting the subordinate, rather than being the decision maker. And I'm wondering, I'm going to circle back to this for a second. Do you also suggest contacting the person above the hiring manager and working down? Or is it really about the subordinate?

You can contact the person above but I found the person in your role that you want can be the most help because they're in your role, and they can provide the most insights compared to someone higher up. They're gonna have less insights into the day to day and that application and interview process.

Perfect. So in contacting the subordinate, what do you say? You know, like, you message them on LinkedIn, call them on the phone? Can't text them. You don't have their number yet? Like, what do you do?

Yeah, I'm a huge fan of being honest and saying, Hey, I see you work at Facebook as an engineer. I currently work at Twitter as a software engineer. I'm curious what it's like working at Facebook. What's the culture? Like? Do you want to share best practices because people are typically open to sharing best practices, especially during the pandemic, when people are lonely, procrastinating, and try and get a conversation going? And then if it goes, well loop back and say, Hey, this conversation went, well? Do you have tips from application? Or are you willing to introduce me to the hiring manager, but try and keep that initial message to two or three sentences? "Hey, we do similar work. Do you want to share best practices? Do you have 20 minutes to chat?" That's it. And people say, "Okay, what else do I say?" Nope, that's it, that was all the message, I want you to send. And there's not more to it.

There's no magic to this, folks. It's really about human beings connecting, and doing human kind of things with other humans. You know, we're recording this during pandemic times, which makes it even more important that humanity comes through, as opposed to "I'm a very important person, and I deign to bask in your magnificence." And I hope you like . . . who cares! Be human when you contact folks. And they may not respond instantly, which is one of the realities that most people get disappointed with. "I sent them a message and he didn't get back to me! (Whimper) And, unfortunately, people don't always log on to LinkedIn, unless they themselves are looking. Or they tend to be active on the platform. So folks, you've got to be patient.

Yeah, and it takes time, because a lot of people they don't log on regularly, every week or a few weeks, or some people just don't log on. BAfan for every position you're interested in, in a company. So if you want to be a software engineer at Facebook, reach out to half dozen people there. And then go to Twitter, if you want to be an engineer there, reach out to a half dozen people and do at each company and then statistically, usually, at least one person will reach out back to you from each company and just do that every day. Reach out to people every day, or people a month ish that you're reaching out to and you're going to get a lot going. That's the homework I assign my clients and they have a bunch of informational interviews they're going on, instead of wasting their time just applying to this black hole and hoping, "Okay, I hope Ihear back from some of these applications I'm sending out."

It's called the black hole for a reason.

Exactly. Most most jobs are landed by way of networking. And that doesn't mean you often know people at these companies. If you don't know people at these companies, you can start creating relationships. So you can be getting to know people at your target companies,

The statistics used to be 70% of positions are fulfilled as a result of networking. 70% of the 70% or 49% come as a result of introductions to people, your network knows who you don't. So it's not the direct connections. It's the indirect and these days, it's even higher than that. LinkedIn says it's 85% come as a result of networking and if the same as 70% number comes in, that's 55, 56% come as a result of introductions. So folks, don't be the lazy person and apply for a job through the black hole. You know it's called that for that reason. Why are you wasting your time? So I'm sorry, you're gonna say something?

I was just going to say, I think that's so critical. And it's easy to apply online. And I think that's why people do it and it takes stepping outside of your comfort zone a bit, because it is a little scary reaching out and saying, "Oh, I might get rejected." But on the flip side, you might not get rejected and make this amazing contact at this organization. And even if they don't have a job, right, then you're still building your network. I tell my clients, you're planting seeds at target companies, if every day you're reaching out to a different company, you're quickly building your network at all these companies. Continue to do that even when you're not searching, you're building this vast network so that when you are job searching, you have all these contacts at all these companies for we're talking about right now, particularly now for when we're hiring people in there, because these companies have employee referral programs. So just, planting those seeds, it's, it's going to be so much easier to land a job in tech.

And, folks, I want you to notice what he said. And that is, you're not just networking, when you're looking for a job. You're networking all the time. And how many contacts a week were you suggesting, for the non active applicant? How many for the active person?

Usually, for the active person, I suggest five people a day, sending a message. For the non active person, it's going to depend on your workload. I was just working with a client who landed a job. And for her, we said, "let's reach out to three people a week just to keep that going and planting seeds. And that still adds up really quick. Three a week is over 150 or so. So you're just planting the seeds. And it really starts growing really quick. And you can go back to these people and say, "Hey, we chatted a year ago. I loved what you said about . . . said about Pinterest. And now I'm looking and I see Pinterest is hiring." That's why I love planting the seeds at all these companies that you can then go reap later when you're looking for a job.

So it reminds me of the movie "Being There" with Chance The Gardener. And first you put the seeds in the ground and the seeds start to sprout and you start to get results. yada, yada, yada. And that's why it's so important to do proactive networking, rather than this kind of reactive nonsense than most people do. I suspect you, you, like me speak in terms of, you know, you're the person in charge of your career. No one else is. Most people outsource their career to their employers and they forget that they're the chairperson of their own organization with responsibility for their own career. And folks, you couldn't see Kyle nodding, but he was agreeing there. Yeah.

Exactly. You have to be in charge. And the thing is, it's not difficult, but it is scary sometimes, and just moving beyond that comfort zone a little bit can reap amazing results. And you're not gonna always get responses, like you said, but when you do, it's really exciting when you reach out to people at your dream company, and they respond. And I always like telling people, out of all the people I've ever messaged, 1000s, on my behalf, and on the behalf of clients who want to work at companies, I've only ever had one person ever say no to an informational interview with one of my clients or with me. I've had a number of people just not respond, because they likely don't log on to LinkedIn. But I've only ever had one person ever say, no. I just won't talk to your clients. So people are willing to help, which is really exciting and cool.

Yes, it is. And that brings us to the point of people are willing to help. And they're willing to help you whether you're looking for work or not, because they want to have a connection with folks too.

They are and people want to share best practices too. And initations don't just have to be about "I want to work at your company. Give me give me give me. You can give value. A lot of my clients worry about, "Hey, I'm scared that if I had this conversation, there's nothing I can offer." But if sending said this you have value to offer, you can share what it's like being at your company, what your career is looked like and simply want to help. And that's the value you bring. As someone who has a career, or when people reach out to me and say, "hey, I want to know what it's like being a career coach," And then we're, when I share, that's just me get geting value from you as me helping you. So there's value you can get just by talking to people as well. So, don't worry about not being able to deliver value to the person you're speaking with.

Give more. Get more and thus by giving, you're getting a lot. It's just part of how you create happiness for yourself, as well as for others. So, we're talking, is there anything particularly unique about one firm in tech versus another as to how to stand out. Any unique stories that you might be able to share? Come on. Come on. I know. . .

Yeah. So I think what's critical is each is different and their cultures are different. There is these ideas, that tech is all the same, but it's gonna differ from company to company, For example, Netflix is know known for not having great work life balance. People work a lot and they compensate you well for that work. And a lot of my clients who work there who have worked there, go there for 18 months, two years, get really burnt out and then go somewhere else. So recognizing why you want to work for specific companies and being able to communicate. That is really key. Once you land those interviews, and when you're communicating, why you want work for those companies. that's key there be specific your answer to why I want to work at Netflix needs to be different than your answer to why I want to work at Amazon. If you just say, I love tech, that's not specific enough, I want you to have an answer, that if I pick your answer from why you want to work at Netflix and take it over to your interview at Facebook, they'd be like, What are you saying, this doesn't make sense, your answers need to be really specific for each of these companies. And you need to be able to communicate that and you should be communicating that everywhere when you apply when you're not work when you interview. And people just make the mistake of saying I'm passionate about tech. But if you're applying people assume you're passionate, and that's not enough of an explanation.

So in the Netflix example, it sounds like what they should be talking about is I want to make a commitment to an organization and put my full energy in . . . .RRRRRRRR and go through the hard charging kind of answer. What I call the East Coast answer versus a West Coast answer.

Yes. And really being able to explain why Netflix. What drew you to that company? How do you see yourself being there, really understanding their culture, and how that varies from an Amazon, or a Facebook or Google-- really understanding that culture. And having those informational interviews we talked about are going to really help you communicate that, because you're going to get insights from people who went through the application process and who already worked there. So, you can leverage some of those insights into your documents, into your networking, into your interviewing.

So we've spoken about the Netflix example, and what they want to hear in the course of the conversation and thus how you could stand out there. And you mentioned is different than the Amazon one, than the Google one and the Facebook one. How would the Amazon one come across for someone? I know we're dealing with it superficially and not specific to an individual or an industry, but at a high level? How would it work?

Yeah, so Amazon is customer obsessed,. They have 12 leadership principles there. So if you're going there, you need to memorize those principles is what I encourage my clients because in your interview, they're going to ask about those specific principles. Go in and want specific examples of when you've demonstrated those at past companies. And I encourage people to have examples ready for each of those. So when I prep applicants, I usually only go through a half dozen stories for other companies. But for Amazon, for every single principle, you need to have a story ready, of how you've demonstrated those principles before. And, then at a higher level, you just need to be customer-obsessed. Amazon, unlike any other company I've seen, maybe Apple or Disneyland, but Amazon is truly customer obsessed. You need to be able to demonstrate that, and why you want to work for them, and how at other companies you've been really customer obsessed. And it's going to be different than Netflix, where they are customer-obsessed, but it's different. They're not focused as much on the customer compared to somewhere like Amazon. So how you answer your questions are going to be through a different lens or angle.

Can I hit you with one or two more?

Yeah, absolutely.

Let's go to Google Next. What would the message be that you'd want to communicate to a Google?

So, Google, like other companies, but especially Google, I find that each vertical within Google because Google is such a large company and because there's just all these different organizations within it, are gonna vary so much. I've had clients who were in one organization or under one executive there who really love it, and then they move under another executive and don't like it because the work-life balance is different. So it's really going to depend where at Google you are. But I found Google in general is really cares about making the world a better place. And I know that sounds kind of superficial. But that's what I found a lot about the company. They're really caring about the impact that you're making. It's not just tech, but they're really caring about making an impact. And that's something I've seen a lot through my clients in there. It's not just a job. Look at what we're doing here.

Bingo! Facebook, I'm going to hit you with Facebook as the last example I'll ask you for.

Yeah. So with Facebook, I've seen a lot about culture. Their people culture is something that matters a lot for Facebook, and how you're interacting with other people on your team, your cross functional collaboration. Those are the types of questions that tend to come up a lot at Facebook. And there's so many social media channels out there. You have Facebook, Twitter, Tik, Tok, Snapchat, all of these ones--Why Facebook and not these other platforms is something that comes up a lot with my clients, even if they don't ask that directly when they're getting interviewed. indirectly. They really want to know why Facebook and some other tech company and when I'm prepping with my clients for the interviews, my clients are like, "Well, I'll worked for any of them." That's often the answer. But when you get into that interview, they want to know why Facebook and not some other company. So I found that this company, talking about the product is often helpful. What is it about Facebook's products that really draws you to them and the impact that their products are having on users.

And this has been great folks. And now let's go further into standing out. There are lots of different ways that people can stand out. With your experience with some of these organizations, do you . . . You know . . . you mentioned of course, people are trolling all over LinkedIn to find people. And what sort of messages are they looking for in a LinkedIn profile nowing that, you know that LinkedIn is like putting your resume on a job board in some respects, that people are searching there because that's what LinkedIn sells is access to you. So what what do firms tend to look for in the profile that will help someone stand out?

So there's two things I found with LinkedIn. One, recruiters or sorcerers, two different types of people, but recruiters and sorcerers, they're looking for you aligning with the job posting, or the job reqs that they're trying to fill. And I find often clients say, "Here's all my experience. Let me write it all out and then go try and apply for jobs. And instead, I encourage my clients to work backwards. Don't touch your LinkedIn or resume until you know the types of jobs you're targeting. So what I like to do is have my clients find a half dozen or so jobs they are interested in, print out those job requisitions and then say, "Okay, I'm gonna highlight everything I've done, and then add it to my profile." So you're speaking their direct language. You can massage it a bit to speak a little bit of your own words or fit what you've done. But we want to be speaking their language. And this is for two purposes. One, so when a recruiter sees their profile, they're like, Oh, my gosh, this is exactly what I'm looking for." And then, two, for keyword purposes. Yesthey're using total rewards in HR, you don't want to be using benefits. You want to be speaking their language. And then the second piece I'm seeing on LinkedIn is a lot of people just upload their LinkedIn profile, and then sit there and say, "Where are the recruiters? The sorcerers? Where are the hiring managers." And the key is to not just sit there and wait, but to be reaching out to people, like we mentioned earlier, reaching out to those people in your target roles, so you can start having conversations. So by having a great profile, people will reach out to you if it's optimized. But you also want to be reaching out to people at your target companies and planting those seeds and having conversations.

Folks, I just want to back up to one term that Kyle used, which is sourcer vs. recruiter. Because some of you may not know the difference. A recruiter can be a person who finds their own candidates, but they're also client facing. A sorcerer is just finding people to fill jobs. And they're turning it over to someone else who's client facing. So once a person has been qualified for the job, the're passing it off to someone else, and you may or may not ever speak to them again. So sourcing is a different craft, and may sound similar and in some respects it is. But the job is part of the recruiter job. Thank you for that little digression there. And let's keep going for a few more minutes. So we've got a couple of ways that a person can stand out on their profile, a couple of ways that they can, excuse me, stand out in their career. What else can they do? What else will allow them to be pursued by the firm's in tech.

So something I find, particularly in tech is people want to know who you are as a human and as a person. And people fail to share their personality. In tech, in particular, this is a place where you can share your personality. What sets you apart from everyone else, as a human. I love coffee. I love sharing my love with my partner on LinkedIn. And that's okay, in tech And in general, I think about particularly in tech, people want to see who you are. And it's okay to do that. So I'm a proponent of sharing relevant related interests and hobbies, on LinkedIn, on your resume, when networking, when interviewing. So that's a way to stand out, as well. There's some mutual connections that you can have with people on break that ice. So you're not just "oh my gosh, here's another resume with 100 bullets that I'm just trying to read." But it's like "oh my gosh, here's a human that actually I want to talk to." I was recently speaking with the hiring manager and she said, "you know, one of the things that really helps me know whether I want to interview someone is if I stuck in an airport for hours with this person (This was pre COVID. But that's something to think about) like do I want to be stuck in an airport with this person and one way to help determine that is your personality. Does your personality shine through on paper and in person? I encourage you to think what sets you apart from people personality wise and how can you help that shine through? So again, go back to that text that we said at the beginning, what makes me fabulous and put some of that online.

"Oh my G-d, I have to open myself up to people! oh, they may reject me. G-d, please stop it already. But that people are inhibited for fear that they might be rejected for who they really are. When in fact, I always tell people, one of the worst things that you can do in an interview is behave, I put that in the air quotes. Because when you behave, they're not seeing the real you. And you're not seeing the real them. And then you get professionally married, wake up after the first night and go, Oh, my God, what did I do. And I know hiring managers have this statistic, where within 18 months, 60% of them or it could be 65 or more, which are the to have buyer's remorse about the person they hired. And Job Hunters have it even earlier. So you've got to open up folks to avoid those choice mistakes that too many people make. So what haven't we covered yet that we really should.

I think going back to the beginning of texting these people what makes you fabulous, because for the people listening, hopefully by this point, you've had some people text you back what makes you fabulous. And I like taking this a step further. I like imagining a diagram or for people listening or watching, they can draw this. And I encourage people to draw a Venn diagram. And on the left side out those responses people gave you of what makes you fabulous. And then on the right side, I encourage people to write out what made you really excited as a child. What lit you up? What made the hours pass like minutes. That's a reference to Carl Jung, and say, Okay, why it was super exciting, and then see where the overlap is. And this is even deeper about what makes you fabulous, because those are those items that carried over over the last 10, 20, 30, 40 years. Because they were there as a child before you had the mask of adulthood of here's what you have to do that's quote unquote, optional, quote, unquote, "behave" as you say. And now they're still radiating through and people are in need over is really what's fabulous, because it's been there all along, and it's still there. And it's moving from the internal you to the external you and people see it and that I have found when I do with my clients is really what sets them apart from other people. For me, then, I love teaching at a huge bite as a fourth grader or I would do teaching to my stuffed animals. I had a lesson planner that my parents bought at the Dollar Store, I made them worksheets. And now as an adult, people say you're a great teacher. You're a great educator, you're a great coach. And that's what makes me fabulous-- the ability to coach people help them rethink, recreate reimagine their careers, and that's that unique fabulousness in the middle, that's rang true over the last 28 years. So I encourage people to draw this zenn diagram. See what's in the middle. And that can help you figure out what sets you apart from all the other job seekers out there because it stayed with you last few decades.

That is gorgeous style. That is gorgeous. Thank you. How can people find out more about you and the work that you do?

Yeah, so my website's caffeinatedKyle.com. I'm on LinkedIn. Kyle Elliott with two L's two t's or social media. Well, CaffeinatedKyle.

Thank you. And folks, we'll be back soon with more. I'm Jeff Altman, The Big Game Hunter. Visit my website, TheBigGameHunter.us. There is a ton there that can help you, with your job search, with your management, with your leadership, a whole host of different things, but primarily around job search.

If you happen to be interested in coaching while you're at the site, you can schedule a free discovery call or ask me some questions related to your search. I'd love to help you. Lastly, lastly, I hope you have a terrific day. be great. Take care!

ABOUT JEFF ALTMAN, THE BIG GAME HUNTER

Jeff Altman, The Big Game HunterJeff Altman, The Big Game Hunter is a coach who worked as a recruiter for what seems like one hundred years. His work involves career coaching, as well as executive job search coaching, job coaching, and interview coaching. He is the host of “No BS Job Search Advice Radio,” the #1 podcast in iTunes for job search with more than 2000 episodes.

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