Designing Career Experiments | JobSearchTV.com

Designing Career Experiments | JobSearchTV.com

By Jeff Altman, The Big Game Hunter
This is the second of my interviews with Scott Anthony Barlow about changing careers. In this interview, we discuss designing experiments to test the ideas you come up with while looking for the career that fits you.

Finding The Career That Fits You

This is an automated transcript that contains a few errors.

Unknown Speaker  0:00

Hi, It’s Jeff Altman, The Big Game Hunter and you’re watching Job Search TV or listening to no BS Job Search Advice Radio. As I’ve said many times, I like to spend some time talking with you about some element of your career or job search. Because you know this, you make it a lot harder than it really needs to be. And the skills needed to find a job are different than the ones needed to do a job. And the ones involved with a transition. You know, you’re dealing with more of the emotion than the process, the anxiety of the change, and am I doing the right thing. Now my guest on part two of the series that we’re doing on transition is Scott Anthony Barlow, who, if you don’t know him, listen to the podcast happens your career, or visit his website happened to your career calm. They’re both great resources. Scott, welcome back. Thank you very, very much. We had so much fun on our last episode that I am not only thrilled to be back, I am ecstatic to be back. Now, folks, the truth of the matter is this was pre arranged, we were doing back shows.

Unknown Speaker  1:11

But as a podcast host, he’s been very kind here.

Unknown Speaker  1:16

It’s still true to though I am, even though it happened, what, 20 minutes ago, I’m still ecstatic to be back. And he could have said, Oh, Mike, my kids are yelling in the background I have I

Unknown Speaker  1:30

like your fade now, Jeff?

Unknown Speaker  1:33

Hello, hello, can hear ya.

Unknown Speaker  1:36

And I’m glad we can have some fun with one another Scott. So episode number one was really good about finding a career that fits you. And this second one really builds on that process, which is designing career experiments. Because after all, when you think about it, folks, once you have this notion, I have to call it a notion of what’s right for you. Well, we have to conduct experiments and test that out kind of like in the laboratory, where a Dr. Frankenstein or or some other chemist, the size, the perhaps Charles, perhaps, the idea or notion that they have a Frankenstein voice and

Unknown Speaker  2:20

may not be correct. So we have to do experiments. So building on the notion of Okay, we’ve got a couple of ideas, one, folks next to Scott.

Unknown Speaker  2:31

Well, I love that you went there for Frankenstein, because I think that my worst fear in some ways, for many of the folks that we’ve had the opportunity to help over the years, is that they will do all of this great work up front and identifying what creates an ideal career for them. And we alluded to a whole bunch of that, like you said in the in the episode right before this, so you can go listen, to go back and listen to that, for how to identify what creates a great career for you. However, once you’ve done all of that work, what I don’t want to happen is I don’t want you accidentally making a Frankenstein where you have done all this great work, you’ve got a great guess you think that, hey, I absolutely need to make a transition to HR management. And then you go over, you get a job, you find yourself in HR management, you’re like, Oh, this is this is terrible. And six months, and after the honeymoon period wears off, you’re like, oh, what did I do? Oh,

Unknown Speaker  3:31

I do understand. Because, you know, well, you’re someone who’s made lots of career transitions. What is it? Dirty Dozen? More or less something?

Unknown Speaker  3:43

You know, you have an idea, but you don’t have certainty in and you may have heard Scott use the word No.

Unknown Speaker  3:50

Yeah, you have the idea that maybe this is right, but you can’t be certain. So the idea becomes, we have to design experiments to test out the hypothesis, just like, you know, Boris Karloff might have done.

Unknown Speaker  4:06

Exactly, exactly. So what kind of experiments Haha, tell me tell me tell me. Okay. So the the concept here for any experiment that we choose to do or design or anything else is that a little tiny bit of upfront work to test out our hypothesis of what we think we want to be doing, whether that we think we want to work for Google or we think we want to move into HR, whatever it is that we think that we want to do. We want to get some road signs at a minimum and some small measures of reassurance that we are in fact heading the right direction. So in our designs, roads, roads, decipher that term for us.

Unknown Speaker  4:49

I know more so than that, as we’re heading down this path. We are getting some kind of some kind of things pointing to us saying yes, you are

Unknown Speaker  5:00

In fact, on the right road, it’s an affirming response, a positive response to say, hey, this may be the right place. Yes, yes, before we continue going there, because once we’re in that new job, we add just like we said before, we don’t want to end up wasting many months or years of our life. So we have six different types of experiments that we work with people on all the time. And very often we may we, well, we may do just one we may say, okay, you know, this is the best experiment for you and your situation, or we might choose a couple in order to create a larger experiment. But all of them are with the context that it is short term, like almost short thinking short term project in order to validate that you’re moving the right direction. So number one, the first countdown Oh, Letterman. Oh, six. Yeah. Okay. All right. Number Number six, we’ll start with the back end.

Unknown Speaker  5:57

Number six going in reverse.

Unknown Speaker  6:01

We call this one the learner. And it is exactly what it sounds like. So this truly is number six, like we do have an order and everything like that. So we are going in reverse. And the learner is probably what one of the most common. So we’ll get with the less common and more strategic as we go up here as well. And the learner is just simply immersing yourself in intentional learning to understand whether or not you want to pursue a career direction. And the first people, the first thing most people think about is like college or graduate degrees. But it doesn’t have to be this at all, it can be much more shorter term than that. It could be,

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Unknown Speaker  6:38

it could be actually just attending a class, it could be, instead of spending, you know, 30 to $70,000, and a year or two on an advanced degree, which isn’t worth it for most people, it could actually just be signing up for something that’s free. Like there’s courses on LinkedIn, there’s courses on Udemy, there are, there’s all different ways to do that. Or it could actually be a class at your local university. Or it could even be something that’s self designed, like I’m going to spend, I’m going to set aside an hour a week for the next three weeks. And I’m going to go through and digest all of the free things that are on YouTube about this topic. So it could range quite a bit, but it is intentional learning to try and validate is this suspected desire of the direction that I’m heading is it in fact, potentially a great direction for me, or you get that far into it, and you get one class into it and realize, Oh, this is terrible. It’s not at all what I thought. And then you’ve saved yourself many, many hours, potentially even months and years. So number six, to learn. And that’s a smart way to do it, folks. Because when you think about it, he’s talking about a YouTube class, he’s talking about a couple of videos, he’s talking about taking class for Udemy, or any number of other platforms. And many universities are offering free coursework as well. Why not take more classes go exploring? What’s the worst that can happen? You wasted a couple of evenings of your life after work, and you’ve saved yourself a lot of my good Yeah, yeah. So all of these, by the way, are what we call Multi Purpose events. And all that means is we do these not just for the purpose of validating that we’re heading the right direction. But every single one of these experiments I’m going to talk about are for a secondary purpose to in the case of the learner, if you decide that you are heading the right direction, or you’ve got some of those road signs indicating that you’re heading the right way, then you have now some of the skills and knowledge to on top of it as you’re moving that direction. So same thing for number five, number five, number five. This is what we call the budding expert. And this is you’ll you’ll understand this, but we might have to explain that a little bit. I found that one of the quickest ways it’s obscene in some ways, but it’s very, very cool at the same time to become involved with a certain topic, or profession, or industry or anything is to become a member of the media associated with AI. Now I’m not I’m not talking about like a card carrying member of the Associated Press That’s not at all what I’m talking about what I’m talking about in terms of like writing or blogging or creating a podcast or creating video or really any other type of media. This not only when you are doing this for this purpose, it forces you to learn, but it also exposes you to other potential opportunities and people at the same time for and it’s such a clever approach, association with a guest that you’re interviewing for podcasts or video suddenly makes you the expert, because we’re asking good questions that make them look good. By the way, Scott, how am I doing today?

Unknown Speaker  9:48

Very good. Very good as it turns out, thank you. And kidding aside for those of you who are considering a transition, doing podcasting video interviews, right

Unknown Speaker  10:00

Thinking about the subject and then distributing it so that more people get to see it goes a long way toward creating the bona fide ease that will help you

Unknown Speaker  10:13

demonstrate that you have an expertise. Excellent. So this it gets super cool, actually, I’ll give you one really quick example on just how to actually apply this to make it a little bit more tangible than real world. I know we mentioned Eric on on the first episode as an example, and we’re talking about, you know, he thought he wanted to be in the tech industry. And he thought he wanted to be around certain types of people. But as we got into his experiment, part of his experiment was he actually started a blog, and wrote different types of articles about the solar industry and some of the legislation that was coming through. And then he contacted CEOs of many of the organizations that he wanted to work with. And, you know, some of these were like, you know, 40, people, organizations, some of these were like, really large organizations. And he got to chat with most of those CEOs. And as you might imagine, not only did he get to learn a ton from those people in just having a little bit of time exposure, who normally wouldn’t pick up the phone, probably. But since he was a member of the, you could say, press or media, then there was an additional incentive. So he featured them in his teeny, tiny blog, and wrote the article. And then now he had an iPhone full of CEOs numbers to where he could, as he decided that, hey, I don’t really want to work for this organization, by doing work for this other organization, he could actually pick up the phone and be able to have access to that CEO, which was, again, multipurpose. And those folks, one of the things that’s inferred here is taking a top down approach, rather than necessarily applying for a job through the legendary black hole. It’s,

Unknown Speaker  11:50

it’s bizarre to me how many people try a career transition. And the first thing they’re doing is sending out resumes to the black hole.

Unknown Speaker  12:01

And what kind of results because the applicant tracking system isn’t seeing the keywords there. And they have no basis for really judging you. And they focus in on the top third of the first page for those keywords. They’re not there for history. And what better way to get entree into an organization and start at the top with someone you’ve already establish some amount of relationship with very smart approach. Very smart. So I’m sorry, oh, no, I was just gonna say that’s one example of nearly infinite ways that you can use that type of thing. But it has to be has to offer all of these, they also have to come from a genuine place like they cannot be purely used as Catholics, you have to Eric had to be genuinely interested in what he was writing, otherwise, it was not going to come out the same. He couldn’t fake it. No, and it makes sense. Because when you think about we’re talking about you, folks, Fiji, your career, and if this is something that you’re not interested in wanting to do wasting time, you know, again, back to something from the first show, you know, a lifetime is not a long time you spend a lot of time at work, the idea of doing this career transition is to get to a place where you’re doing something that you’re enjoying, and hopefully it pays you well enough. And with a number of other variables that we talked about in the first show. So the question comes down to, why would you waste people’s time with an insincere approach, it’s got to always come from the place of authenticity. Yeah, love that. And especially true for this next one, too, which is number 444. Do we call it the foot in the door, and this most commonly would be volunteering. There are other ways to do it. But let’s talk about the most common here. So volunteering, although usually it can be very helpful to the organization that you’re helping out, it can be either incredibly valuable to your experimentation or a huge waste of time. And it the question becomes, how do you do volunteering in a way that’s hugely helpful for you and them? So I use this question is a guide anytime I’m talking about this as a part of your experiment, will the volunteer opportunity expose you to either the types of work or the people or the challenges or or the learning that you hypothesize, you want to spend more of your time around? If it doesn’t, it’s probably not going to be maybe maybe you should still go do the volunteering. I’m not trying to deter you from volunteering, but as an experiment piece, if it doesn’t, then it’s probably not gonna be a good experiment. Is this ideal for really for volunteer for a non for profit environments? You know, I tend to think, and I could be completely wrong, you have more experience in this than I do. I tend to think that large corporations will be locked in to expose their computer systems to someone who in theory could do a MacGyver and hack their way and so I tend to think of nonprofit spaces being much more open to that

Unknown Speaker  15:00

Am I wrong? I think that there’s multiple ways to go about it. So you certainly it can work well for like those nonprofit spaces, certainly. But also another take on this that isn’t necessarily obvious when I say volunteering, it might not always be directly for the organization itself. So for example, you know, when I was making a career change way back, when I was volunteering for a professional organization that had all of the HR executives, that, that were in that particular community, all of them were card carrying members, all of them showed up at all of the events. And at all of those events, it was wonderful for me to be able to be like the first person that they see at the door, and greeting them on the way and getting to know them by name. And then having an opportunity to be able to reach out to them get to know more through that type of relationship and interaction long before we ever sat down to talk about an opportunity at their organization. Again, very smart, I was thinking of situations where in tech, people do some work supporting a friend of theirs, who’s working on a project, and they do some of the coding, they do some of the analysis work. And it gives them a flavor for what it’s like and evaluate them. That’s the other way that we’ve seen this work very effectively to where you can actually do some of the some of the work. We had another person that we’ve worked with, she was trying to decide, does she want to go into trying to say she wanted to be a counselor or not. And she took the we always asked what is the what is the smallest way that you could validate this and get some of that information. In her case, she volunteered for the Crisis Text Line, just to get a teeny tiny tidbit of what that could look like or would look like and determined Actually, she really didn’t want to go down that direction. And she ended up in the 11th hour, like dropping out of school. And it was a best decision she could possibly make, right before she began her degree and spent many, many 1000s of dollars. And it was just it was a smart decision on our part because again, it’s a huge investment of money, time, energy effort. It’s taking you away from other options and things that consider

Unknown Speaker  17:18

the choice. Yeah, yeah. So that was number four, number three. Number three, we call this one the paid researcher. And this one is very much what it sounds like, too. But there’s a few different ways that this can happen. I’ll tell you some of the most common ways that this looks, one can be

Unknown Speaker  17:41

well, I guess first, I should probably mention that the reason I like this one in particular, is because we find that if you’re doing things for free, often the dynamic can be a little bit different than doing things on a paid capacity. So is this is a way to understand what it is like with the dynamic along with it too. It creates different levels of stakes to the experiment. So

Unknown Speaker  18:06

one way could be literally taking on a, you know, consulting type role, or a freelance style role, or other things like that in a short format, project or contract. So that one, you’re not locked into it forever. Because if you decide, hey, I hate this, never want to do this again, then you’re not not doing it for many, many, many months or years after that. But then too, it shortens that feedback loop. And a shorter term gig of any of those types is very likely going to be less difficult to get to. And when we find a lot of people, I’m always surprised about, you know, people think about that initially, and they’re like, well, how am I gonna do that, and then we start working with them and realize actually, there’s low hanging fruit like right in front of you, like your friend that started a company that actually needs a little bit of help with copywriting and you’re trying to figure out, do you want to become a copywriter? Or, you know, there’s variations of that all the time, for a lot of you folks Upwork and freelancer.com become ways that you could take small gigs, do them on the side deliver have a sense of what it’s like doing the work. And yes, many of the rates are going to be low rates, but that isn’t the point. The point is to get some experience doing the work and

Unknown Speaker  19:29

get paid 20 bucks an hour on top of it or even 10 bucks an hour or something on top of it then I call that a net positive considering or comparing to like going back to school for two years and paying 70,000 bucks. Amen. So number two, number two number two is you know I’m actually going to flip

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Unknown Speaker  19:50

number one and number two, I know that’s gonna spoil some of the thing but you have to understand number one, understand number two, I didn’t think this through I usually go in order

Unknown Speaker  20:00

But the number one,

Unknown Speaker  20:03

number one is what we call the let’s just say this as number two is what we call the social Goldilocks. And I love that name social Goldilocks. Oh, it is very much also what it sounds like. So Goldilocks being like, is this chair too big is this porridge too high is this corner office to, to, you know, Sunny, like, whatever, whatever it happens to be.

Unknown Speaker  20:27

In this case, it’s been able to try out a lot in a very short amount of time. And we call it the social Goldilocks, because what we very often do is, we’ll have people arrange different types of what we call test drive conversations. So let me give you an example for how this might work.

Unknown Speaker  20:45

We had a, we had a student, one of our programs, her name was Laura. And Laura had worked in sustainability for nearly eight years in the same company, she flew up the ranks, all that good stuff was well paid. And when she finally decided she wanted to change careers, later on, she really wasn’t even sure where to start. And she wasn’t sure totally what else was out there, too. So she came to us. And we started working with her. And she ended up identifying three different areas that she suspected were potentially great for her. One of them was sustainability. One was product management, and there were two others, right. So what she did is, she began reaching out to not just people that she knew, and ranging from friends to a queen says that maybe fell into one of these categories, or knew somebody that that fell into one of these categories, and could help create an introduction to that person. But then what she would do is she would actually have short conversations, like literally 15 minutes conversation, she would call these people up and say, Hey, I know I am, Jen should be very blatantly honest. I’m gonna make a career change here in the next six months, and I’m trying to figure out what it is that really could be a great fit for me. And, you know, I saw that you were in sustainability, or I saw that you’re in innovation. And you know, I really fascinated by what you do. And I’m wondering if you’d be willing to have a 15 minute conversation with me to where I can ask you some questions and understand more about what you do. Is that something you’d be open to? And what we found in Laura’s case, and in most people’s cases is someplace between 50 to 70% of people say Yes, I’d love to thank you so much for asking, that’s amazing. And it’s interesting, doing it as the phone call, rather than sending an email or an inmail. To me makes a lot more sense. So many people take what they think is the gentle approach of emailing. But it doesn’t work, not the same degree that a phone call does, because they hear your voice. They hear that you are not a whack job. You’re not

Unknown Speaker  22:51

some, you know someone in Nigeria, who the next, the next thing is sindelle your money, you’ll get lots of dollars,

Unknown Speaker  23:02

we’ll send gold Do you

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Unknown Speaker  23:05

hear the term as semi normal human being? And you’re just asking for advice. And what I’ve always found is if I say, Can I get 15 minutes? When I get to the 15 minute mark, if I’m not quite done, I may say, this is 15 minutes, you know, is it okay? If I go a touch longer? Are we really done? And most of the time, they’ll be gracious to give you another couple of minutes. But what you’re doing is being respectful? Yeah. Because they are giving you a gift of their knowledge. And you did ask for 15 minutes, you don’t want to be a liar. Right? Exactly, exactly. So I’d like to social Goldilocks idea. Because, again, it’s just the notion of talking to people who are in the field as to what it’s really like, and those testing the hypothesis that you’ve constructed at the end of the first episode of this interview, and experiment, having real conversations with real individuals. And I know with LinkedIn, like for some of you, you can go to grads from the university, and they may be working in the field. And, you know, be able to find them and then call them at least like a third a couple of years ahead of you. The program. Grant two years behind, you’re from such and such school, I’m thinking through your career change, I saw you’re in the field, yada yada, yada, becomes a nice way to pave the way for the conversation. Pretty much.

Unknown Speaker  24:34

So now we’ve got number one, which is really number two, but hey, we’re calling it number one. We’re calling it number one. This is this is what we call the amped up follow up and if you’re in mo Lagasse Flan, this is a little bit like the social Goldilocks but a bit of bamm bamm along with it. And if you’re not an animal fan, then think about it. For those of you who are millennials let me just tell you Emeril Lagasse is a chef who

Unknown Speaker  25:00

He was very big on TV a couple of years ago. And his big thing was he did throw spices into the dish and go,

Unknown Speaker  25:09

hey,

Unknown Speaker  25:11

yeah, I felt as though I needed to decipher this, I appreciate your audience. Appreciate that. So the way that it works is this, it’s it’s a little bit like the social Goldilocks, except typically, you’re going to schedule a longer conversation. And what you’re going to do your intention is to go in and learn about not just about them in the role or them in their company or anything like that, but learning also about what their challenges and problems are right now. And I’ll give you an example of somebody who did this. Somebody over in the Seattle area who we worked with, he was moving from Portland to Seattle. And, you know, he went up and he scheduled a whole day of these types of meetings, he listened to everything that they were saying, and and took copious notes and everything like that came back. And actually, after every one of those things, he would go ahead and do some of the work or do something to be able to help them that they had a real legitimate challenge with so this did two things for him. One, it allowed him to be able to actually try out some of the work because in you know, in one case, there was a, there was a company that was trying to determine do they want to go into this particular type of green building practices? And do they want to do they want to actually specialize in that. So they’ve been struggling to find time to heal to do all the research necessary. So Mike, in this case, he went ahead and did all the research. He spent like seven or eight hours doing the research for them put together in this nice little report, and emailed it to him a week later saying, Hey, you know, that thing that you haven’t had time for for many, many months? Well, I went ahead and did it for you. Here you go. Enjoy. So he didn’t say, now you need to hire me or anything else like those lines. But you can imagine at how impressed people will be. For something like this, it’s going to create a good impression in one way or another, because it was legitimately helpful. And obviously, folks, you’re not giving them a watered down solution, you know, doing your best work, so that they can see you which are best, because no one wants to hire someone who has video. Yeah, really asking them to pay attention to you, and consider you for employment. No one hires mediocrity, no one wants to talk to mediocrity, you’re going to send a document that’s reflective of you extra best, makes all the difference in the world. Yeah, in most of these organizations that he went and talked to that particular day, he lined them up pretty much back to back to back. And they didn’t have open positions. So he sent this to them, you know, about a week ish later, give or take, they weren’t expecting it, he didn’t promise it to him or anything else. And then he followed up with them and later on and said, Hey, you know, what he called two of the organizations said, I’d actually love to find out how it could be possible to work with you, because he now had an opportunity to trial some of the types of work that and get that feedback, which is valuable in its own right. But then he also put him in a position to be able to have that type of conversation with them, and function more as a not a Oh, my goodness, please take my resume. But instead, it’s much more of coming in as a partner, hey, I would love to be able to continue to contribute to your organization, I would love to have a conversation about how it could be possible in the future. Are you open to that, and he ended up getting multiple job offers from companies that didn’t even have jobs open. And after they made the offers it put them in a position to be able to customize them along the way. And I have to assume just because you try one of these six, doesn’t mean you can try multiples of these six with different people, as you decide. Yep, absolutely. Cool. So as I asked you, at the end of the first show, what happened, I asked you that I really should, in order to complete the knowledge that we’re trying to impart to the audience. You know, I think the biggest thing here is that when you are designing an experiment you really are looking at it is what is the smallest thing that I can do to both both validate that I’m heading the right direction, as well as get some of that feedback and potentially help others along the way in one fashion or another and,

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Unknown Speaker  29:35

and all of these, as we mentioned are multipurpose but when you do that, then it moves you progressively closer in ways that you just can’t anticipate almost every time we do this. Something happens that that individual did not anticipate would happen. They end up getting a slew of job offers or people request to come in and interview because people were impressed with the interaction that they did not anticipate nor were they asked

Unknown Speaker  30:00

For or they learn that wow this direction that I thought I was heading down it is absolutely not right for me I’m so glad I found this out first or something else that is completely different we almost always get something that course shifts and that’s what really what we’re looking for the goal here is not to get a job yet the goal here is to validate are we even on the right road? And we always get that little tiny core shift sometimes it’s very large.

Unknown Speaker  30:25

This has been fabulous I really mean that absolutely fabulous event away a lot so far. How can people find out more about you and your work Scott? Well, probably the two biggest ways are the the podcasts we you’re listening to this, then you probably enjoy podcasts they happen your career podcast is a great way to connect with us and, and hear many of the stories like this, like Mike or like Laura, or many of the other people that we talked about, or happened to your career.com is another another great way that’s our home base. And you can find many of these resources over there too. Fabulous, folks, we’ll be back next time with more to help you land your next role or change your career. I’m Jeff Albin, the big game hunter. If you’re interested in connecting with me, contact me through linkedin@linkedin.com forward slash i n forward slash the big game hunter. Once we’re connected, send me a message to let me know that you’re interested in coaching. We’ll set up a free discovery call I also have got a ton of information at the big game hunter.us that you can watch, listen to or read that will help you find work more quickly. Hope you have a great day. Take care

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ABOUT JEFF ALTMAN, THE BIG GAME HUNTER

Jeff Altman, The Big Game Hunter
Jeff Altman, The Big Game Hunter

Jeff Altman, The Big Game Hunter is a career and leadership coach who worked as a recruiter for more than 40 years. He is the host of “No BS Job Search Advice Radio,” the #1 podcast in iTunes for job search with more than 2200 episodes and his newest show, “No BS Coaching Advice.” He is a member of The Forbes Coaches Council. “No BS JobSearch Advice Radio” was recently named a Top 10 podcast for job search. JobSearchTV.com was also recently named a Top 10 YouTube channel for job search.

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Jeff’s Kindle book, “You Can Fix Stupid: No BS Hiring Advice,” is available on Amazon.

 

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