Breakthough The Glass Ceiling | No BS Job Search Advice Radio

EP 2279 This is an audio interview I did with Anke Menzler for her “Breakthrough the Glass Ceiling Summit” in October, 2021. It is a wide-ranging interview. We cover several subjects in our 30 minutes or so.


Breakthrough The Glass Ceiling | No BS Job Search Advice Radio

You may also like, “Salary Negotiation is Theater.”

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Big Game Hunter is a global career and leadership coach based in the US. His coaching involves helping people with job search, hiring more effectively managing, leading and resolving workplace issues. He hosts the number one podcast for job search, which is called no BS, job search advice radio, which has been available for over 10 years on Apple podcast and has more than 2200 episodes. In addition, he hosts job search, on YouTube, Amazon and Roku. He has written several books and short guides to job search on Amazon, including the ultimate job interview framework and the right answers to tough interview conversations. And now, Hello, Jeff, and welcome to break through the glass ceiling. I'm so happy to have you.

Thank you for the invitation. I'm exhausted listening to my introduction.

It's long, but you also have so much experience. So of course, it is a pretty bio. So yes, I'd love reading it. And this provides also our listeners, what they can expect, I think. So

we're gonna cover a lot of

things. So, Jeff, I think it's not as saturated when I say you are a real expert in the job search. And you have been a headhunter. And now you turned into a career coach or not now, but a couple of years ago, and you're helping people to find their job, and also helping the opposite side to find the best candidates. And I'd love you to share a bit of your story how that come.

My pleasure. So I worked in search for more than 40 years. Yeah. In the so many presidents ago in the United States, I started working as a recruiter. And I was trained in all sorts of abominable tactics, that we all hate recruiters due to Job Hunters and to employers as well. And I hated that part of work. And I grew to understand that job hunting is a game that's rigged against the job Hunter. employers pay the recruiter pay that third party recruiter. So their job is to I don't want to say manipulate, but it is a form of manipulation, to get you to believe that this company has a great opportunity. And as a terrific team of people, I don't have a great future there. So it's hard for job hunters to get accurate information. Because the good recruiters are just the messengers of, shall we say the exaggerations. The employer tells them. exaggerations is a euphemism for lice. Yeah, lawyers tell them that they just pass on to you. And because they're so persuasive, you listen to them and believe them. And we know that the statistics show that employers within 18 months of you joining in almost two thirds of all cases, regret having hired the person. And for us, it takes even less time. Makes sense for both sides. And that really comes down to the work that I do, where I function as an ally for Job Hunters, where I translate the BS lawyers provide and recruiters provide so that you don't fall for that you have someone that you can talk to who works for you, not for the employer does work for the employer. And thus, as an ally for you, yes, I'm compensated by you, but you don't have to worry as to where my interest lies. I want to help you land in a role that you're thrilled with. And I thus make the process much easier.

Oh, wow. Yes, yes. All right. And you know what? This reminds me of the couple situations that I had been with recruiters where I felt okay, either they didn't really read my profile, or their way they were telling me something about the companies that I should be working for. That cannot be true. So yes, you are so absolutely right. And now no You know, all the science, you can help everyone else deal with it a lot better to really figure out is this a company where I want to work? Is this the way I want to be perceived as this. So knowing every angle, oh my gosh, you have so much to offer. Ah.

And, and I also trained as a psychotherapist as well. So I understand the emotional side of this as well, for women, and that starts to interfere with their success on the job search because their anxiety comes out. And their fear of losing the opportunity surfaces. And like in dating, it's always best to be a little cool. It's the same. People withdraw, right? Yeah, wrong with this person.

Exactly. And if you're too focused on the outcome, this is also the same way because then okay, everyone knows, Nah, maybe this is not what I stood for.

Right? Job Hunting is very much like data, with all the good stuff related to it. And shall we say the unpleasant stuff related to? So in working for Job Hunters, I try to make the process better for thought. And when I work for employers, I know that they don't know how to evaluate people. That's so true. Yeah. So what I try to do is help them do a better job of evaluating and assessing so they don't make the foolish mistakes that they make much too often.

I'm curious, because you just mentioned you. You mentioned this earlier. But right now, it was about men and women and I'm so curious about how do they differentiate from another? What do women do? And what do men do and how, maybe could they learn from each other,

they can learn from each other. But they find it hard to trust one another. Okay, no matter who it is, most job hunters go into the process alone, with few supports to help them. And they learn through trial and error, and make many mistakes to prove costly. If they learned to trust other people, they could practice, they could share information more readily. without the fear of losing an opportunity I really want. And learning from these experiences, how to perform at a higher level. from a gender perspective, men fake it better.

Yeah, I thought so.

And as such, they have the advantage that often by being interviewed by other men, there's the male code that shows up, you know, where there's a certain amount of behavioral stuff, it's instinctive. And for women being interviewed by men, there's a perceived power differential exists between that women haven't really figured out how to balance out and I teach a technique for interviewing, that really is designed to level the playing field between the two parties. And I can go into that if you like,

Oh, yes, I am. Because you know what? I first off, I felt like, Okay, I want to know about this male thing, what's going on in between them? Because to be honest, someone should be able to decipher what's going on on the other side, if it's a man, they should know what's going on there and maybe figure out how the how can I say how they over represent themselves? Maybe. And on the other hand, of course, when you have men and women, then it might be difficult for a man to figure out how the women read a woman really takes and what's over there really what what is there to get, but I would be so curious about you to share what's there in it and oh, yeah. Oh, my gosh, the potential in it. Yes, please share.

I'm going to start off with what I call the best question to ask on any interview. Yes. And it starts off with the assumption that if you've seen a job description, or been spoken to by a recruiter or seen an ad, that job description is 80% accurate. And I say that because most of them reside in database is. And when a job opens up, the way that occurs is on Friday afternoon someone gives notice. And the hiring manager will call over to human resources, or their business partner in HR. So you have that job description, we use the higher anchor she just gave notice. And I want to see whether you can get that out to a recruiting resources, post the job. No one ever updates these things. And the result winds up being that most people are operating with inaccurate information.

Oh, yes, I can imagine. Yeah. So

that's the preface to this. And thus, when you start any interview, I believe the way you start, is whether it's on video, or in person on video, you're waiting for them to let you into the video, interview them with a smile. If it's in person, as soon as you walk into the interview area, I think we're in the process of being seated. As you touch the seat. You speak first, instead of waiting for them to talk. Oh. And what you say to them is, thank you so much for making time to record the position description. But I wanted to get your take on the role. Would you tell me about the job as you see it and what I could do to help. And what that does right away? It is where there's normally a power differential between the two parties with the manager knowing what she or he is looking for. And the job Hunter thinking they do. They're telling you exactly what they're looking for.

Because everything in my body just screams right now, yes, please.

It changes the entire dynamic. And thus, when they ask you tell me about yourself, or walk me through your background, whatever that opening question is that I find so lazy, but it's the habit that employers have, that I try and coach them out of by the way. What I asked them, what I asked the job hunter to do start off with the assumption that you should answer the question in about a minute and 15 seconds. Oh, why is that? Because people don't listen very well. Yeah, that's true. Right? So in the first 2025 seconds, you might offer a fairly predictable answer. I've been in the field now for however long it's been, most recently I've been working for so and so I've been doing this and this and that. I'd worked for several other firms working my way up to my career to this point. That's about 20 to 25 seconds, at which point you say, but what's probably most relevant in my background for this role? Is my experience with how your job is to connect the dots between your background and what they just told you. They wanted.

Yes. Oh, my gosh, thank you for that. And thank you for sharing that. It seems like so easy to balance the energies and the power out and really making a making grounded in it. And not coming across like this shy in confident person that you usually are because you feel like oh my gosh, they invited me in.

Oh, poof. They have a problem. They think you're the solution. Make it obvious? Yes. By confirming what it is they want to find what they want to learn about you. So that from there, you're able to tell them, you told me you're looking for this. This is how my background fits it. And you've all you've done that in the first few minutes of the interview. And it's easy from them for that point on. People tell me that there's noticeable physical movement that they see hiring managers make when they say but what's probably most relevant in my background for this role is my experience with and they they've reported that they say

sit up straight

and literally perk up and listen. Yes. What they know is the next thing you're going to say is important.

Yeah, yeah, exactly. And you know, what comes to my mind right now is and this is all scientific and everyone knows that if you show within your body You're confident. So see that, I just take it because when you make the first move, this is showing confidence. So and if you are not in this in this position where you feel really confident and there comes coaching in it, where where do we start? How, and not the process on how you get into making the people confident, but how and this is something that we have all learned, when you are a guest, and being interviewed and invited to the interview, then you are the guests. So you are more polite, and you are hesitant and all of that, how do you get people and what, what is it people can learn to be more assertive in that? Well, I'm

going to start off with practice makes a difference. Those people go to interviews, and they when they offer spontaneous answers, they have not rehearse their lines, I think it's not just what you say that matters, but how you carry yourself what your manners like inspires confidence that you're the solution to a need. Because it's not just simply your competence that firms evaluate for, they evaluate for self confidence, character, chemistry, maybe a little bit of charisma, because charismatic people always do better than and it all adds up to they want to trust someone. And thus, if you act in a fearful way, it makes them anxious. So your goal is to pretend as though you're talking to someone who's a friend of yours, who you trust, and speak with them in the same manner. And this requires practice with someone.

So to

mention two of my books, the first one teaches an overall framework for interviewing. And the second one, you know, the right answers, the tough interview questions, teaches the answers to many, many interview questions. And once you get a flavor for how to answer, your confidence improves, yes. On the fly,

yeah, yeah, it needs this muscle training. And I just had this thought of being more confident and really do the muscle training, having the muscle training and build up your body, and kind of your presence, of course, and the more you you set this up, the more it's it's proven trained, the more confidence you have in it. And now it takes me back to what we started with. It's like in the dating process, if you're not confident, your counterpart will pick this up and will most probably be not interested or if you will, maybe be scared of you because you are unsafe ground. And this holds true even for the interviewing process.

And one of the things I'll point out that makes a person feel more confident, is if they are approached, rather than you doing the approach. Yeah. And that leads me to the idea of how do you become discovered as an expert?

Perfect? Yeah.

Because if they approached you, because they've read about you, they've been referred to you. You're known as an expert in your field, you're in an advantage position. Oh, boys, you are one of many, instead of one of a kind. So how do we do that? It's, it's, it's not just a job search technique that you do one time. It's a career technique. And when you think of your life professional, whether you're planning for a 40 year career, or you're going to retire at some point before then for whatever the reason might be, you have to think of establishing yourself as a brand like

Oh, yes.

So do that. It gives you an advantage because they believe you but they believe you're the expert. Yeah, my favorite example of this from a consumer standpoint, is when people go to the store, and they buy detergent. I have never seen someone pick up two different packages of detergent, read the list of ingredients and go into relationship of the chemicals on this one. No laundry, much than the ones in this one. What's happened is impressions been created, where whether it's because of the price, whether it's because you have a coupon, or you were told by someone else that this is the product you should buy. This product is an advantaged position. Well, the same thing is true for your career. And companies advertise to create that impression they spend the use of dollars over the course of a long period of time to create that impression. Well, you have to make an investment in yourself to or that seems like a lot of work. It is it is the fact that and when you need to change jobs, or When opportunity comes to you because you've done that. You're ahead of the game. Oh, yes, my wife and I adopted our son, Kazakhstan in early 2002. And at that time, the US did not have an embassy in Almaty, Kazakhstan, or in the capital. And we had to fly out by way of Moscow. And when we got to Moscow, we learned something very interesting. And that is parents with young children can walk to the front of any line we get, we get to the airport, we've got to assume to be one year old, and people see us and we're obviously Americans, we dress different. And they're going waving this to the very front. And thus, with a few 100 people waiting online very politely, we were encouraged and permitted to walk to the front. A lovely customer. Yep. And this is what happens for Job Hunters. They can walk to the front of the line. Yes, people know of them, and makes a difference.

And we are all human. Because what you just said about the detergents, it's just everything that we do everything that we do, if I find something that I find very interesting, I show this to my friends. And this is word of mouth. And you know, its reputation. And this is exactly the same what you just said, and we don't think about everything else. We don't go for the details then because we have someone who is having trust in it. You have said something about reputation and trust. And yes, that's it, someone did it. And even if it's a custom, then it's a habit that you follow through, just like you said, Exactly.

And that's for women. My encouragement is the one develop your confidence muscle through practice. Don't just do something one time hour before the interview, it becomes a muscle through exercise. Oh, yeah. So exercise the muscle. And I would encourage you watch the beginning of the interview process as I outlined it several times, and practice those exact words, because it makes a difference in your delivery. Every great athlete in the world always practices that every great entertainer rehearses in order to make us believe that they're the character they're playing on the stage or in the movie screen. But Job Hunters golden interviews and the first time the words come out of their mouth with the interview. And they wonder why they don't have the results.

Yeah, and this also is kind of resulting from us humans wanting a quick fix. And this is also something where everyone comes in and says, Okay, I'm going to hire someone who's just working on my LinkedIn profile, like you said, for branding. And now that's not the deal. It's just not what you are. So you have to take the effort and you have to really work on yourself first, to really make that this presence out there to stand out and make it to the first line.

And the only place I've ever seen where success comes before work is in the dictionary

And thus, folks, you've got to do the work to get much better results. And the truth is, in your career, you may be an expert. But the skills needed to find a job are different than those needed to do a job. And thus, you've got to do the work. Because in your career, you may be a professional, but in job hunting for an amateur,

and you know what? A police go on? I'm sorry, I interrupted. No, no, please. What I just thought as this goes for job searching, but what if? And assuming people want to stay in the company? What about staying in the company and still wanting to make progress?

Absolutely. reputation within your firm and outside your firm goes a long way in career development. So often, people in their career work through a chain of command. Now, I can't talk to my boss's boss's boss. Why not? Right? So they become fearful of talking to their boss's boss's boss. Yeah, someone will, will slap them down and say, bad girl. Bad Boy, you should not do that. Yeah. And who told you that? How did that message get through? If you've got a great idea, your ideas should be shared universally, even if you have to go outside the firm. Yeah, that's a truth. Because if you're a well kept secret, as so many people are, you lose.

That's so true. And I know something from sales. Someone told me long ago in my sales career, that if you don't tell someone what you have to offer, no one can buy it.

And if you hide behind the story that you've been telling yourself for a long time, that I'm not good enough. This other person, they're much better than me. It's a lie that you're telling yourself. Yeah, you've bought into the lie. You believe the lie. And until you defeat it within yourself, until you can start laughing at these remarks that you make to yourself and say, where did I learn that from? Oh, yeah, mom, dad, my brother, sister, whomever it is a teacher when I was eight years old, until you can start going, oh, yeah, that's their voice. And I've been acting from that place. In wins, and you don't.

So true. And this is so easy to do, because I bet everyone who's listening is just now thinking about maybe one interview they had in the last time, or the last interview they have been on and how they felt. And now it would be easy to say okay, when did I fit feel the first time like this? And just check it like you said, or was this with my teacher? Was this with my dad was this whatever and this could be literally any situation from now you don't get the chewing gum from anything else. It's just right. This situation was imprinted. And yeah, there you go with the confidence. Exactly.

If hurt very badly when you were younger. Oh, yeah. And, and on a certain level, you don't want to make that mistake again. Probably problem is the lesson that you learned was incorrect. The lesson should be okay, what did I do wrong? How can I do it better? Not I should never do this again. Oh, never do this again. They might think a bad that's not the lesson. The lesson is what can I learn from this and how can I do it better? Yeah, experiment with those solutions. So you never return to the previous one. Not the I'm going to go into my cave and lick my wounds. Yeah, try and heal from that because yeah,

yeah. And we could now that we have grown up been have I got written off this. So really, this is something we have experienced a long time ago, which shouldn't be true anymore. So this was back then in the caves, when we were hunting tigers and all of that, just to make a living out of debt. And now it's it's gone. So yeah, making small steps, like you said with this interview, set up straight and start talking first.

And believing yourself because you've earned that privilege to believe in yourself. You've accomplished a lot in your career.

Oh, yeah. Yeah. So

being nice, isn't. It's a lie, that you're withholding information from people that allow them to see you for your magnificence. And for the excellence that you can deliver to them. And thus, being nice, being a good girl or a good boy, holds you back. If you believe in yourself, and express yourself at your richest, more opportunity will come to you. Yeah. And that can be by the way, just as an aside, one of the ways that you can express yourself is to go on a podcast and be interviewed on this subject for which you're knowledgeable. Yet so many podcast hosts, want guests, and you have information that their audience might care about. So start looking for podcasts for you and appear, will allow you to be seen as an expert. On LinkedIn, yeah, that you think are relevant for what you want to be known for.

That's a huge thank you. Yeah. Wow.

I tried to bring it on every interview.

And you know what, I had just two thoughts. One was because don't hide, I have had a flirting coach coming back to the dating. And she wants that to me. How dare you not showing the other person that you are interested? How dare you hiding because you withhold disperse maybe his love of his life. And I thought, oh, my gosh, this is really unfair of me. And the second is, I am going to be on the next podcast of any other person out there. You're so right.

And there are many places where you can find out about guests and one guests. There's one site I know called And it's a free service. You can approach podcasters to be a guest on your subject. They have 1000s of podcasts that you can message through their site, it's completely free. And now others like it, that allow you to create reputation, appearance on the podcast, and create videos for YouTube. But let's start smaller, and say you can share articles on LinkedIn. And you can write comments to people about what they post that is complementary, or questioning. Don't be nasty. Don't be insulted.

Of course not. I hope so. Please listen, us watch out. be appreciative.

Right. Unfortunately, we live in times where I feel compelled to say things like you ask great questions, get advice, have conversations with people, people will discover that you can be an expert, even though you're not writing the core content.

Yeah. And if you don't know how does this again, oh my gosh, everything is coming back to dating. Make the first smile. When you're outside and you talk to someone just talk to them. It's not about it's not about flirting. It's just like, getting into contact with people getting into communication get known. Yep.

Right. So if you're more comfortable approaching other women practice with other women exactly worry about approaching men, right. Develop your expertise and having conversations with women about careers, so that this way you learn from other women. There are women's groups professionally throughout the world you can become involved with become involved. Now, let people see you and hear you and experience you As an expert, I dress in a way that gives them the sense of leadership. There's a wonderful story I saw years ago about someone who was at an investor conference in Silicon Valley. And he was trying to get in touch with the speaker. But the speaker was surrounded by people he couldn't get through. And the next day, the speaker sees him on the fringes, his career career, another guy with the orange sneakers, because for him, his branding involve his footwear. Oh, wow. Sneakers. For me, it involves the cat watching my videos. 1000s of them have this cap on it. And it has the same backdrop. Yeah. And people have come to me for coaching and Bill, wow, I can't believe I'm seeing you in that room. I've seen so many of your videos. It has a meaning to them. Of course, create meaning

this is the presence that you create. This is the reputation and like everything else. Rep, repetition and this comes back to our muscle training. Repetition is the one thing that builds trust for yourself and outside.

And I view of repetition leading to a slightly different word, which is congruence message is consistent with who you are. So to ensure reputation is and that fosters trust, yeah, belief that you're an expert. So that's today's show, I hope you found it helpful. And if you did, here are a few things I can do to help you with your job search beyond simply being your coach. First of all, I've got a new book out called the right answers to tough interview questions. It is like a cookbook with answers to tons of interview questions that you're going to be asked on interviews. And if you pair it up with my other new book, The ultimate job interview framework, they are a terrific pair of books to help you with interviewing. In addition, a new service where you can practice mock interviews. If you go to the big game forward slash mock, I've got a service. They're very inexpensive like $99, where we have mock interview setup, I'm going to be adding more to it very soon. But you can record your answers to them. And then I can critique them and help you perform better on them. You probably have noticed my shownotes a pretty thorough with products and services that can help you with your search and connect with me on forward slash i n forward slash the big game hunter. Lastly, my website has a ton of great information. That's the big game Now if you're not ready to go there and go through the blog, put the address in your phone, the big game Jeff Altman, so this way when you're ready to go, you have a way of getting back to my website. Hope you have a terrific day and most importantly, be great


Jeff Altman, The Big Game HunterJeff Altman, The Big Game Hunter is a coach who worked as a recruiter for what seems like one hundred years. His work involves career coaching, as well as executive job search coaching, job coaching, and interview coaching. He is the host of “No BS Job Search Advice Radio,” the #1 podcast in iTunes for job search with more than 2000 episodes.

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