Branding Yourself for Job Search Success | No BS Job Search Advice Radio

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re comm /mo t IV this is no BS job
search advice radio episode 1343
I'm your host Jay Paul from the big game
hunter and welcome this is a show that I
originally recorded a few years ago from
my other show job search radio which is
on web talk radio net Apple podcast and
all the usual places it's an interview
about branding with Kevin Thomas that
it's going to be part of my regular
Sunday features for a little while right
bring some shows over from job search
radio that I think will help you hope
you find this helpful
hope you give it a great review and
Apple podcasts and if you're interested
in my coaching you I'll simply say you
can listen to the end of the show but
it's a 30-minute interview you may not
get there but I'll just say if you're
interested in my helping you with your
job search as a coach not as a recruiter
connect with me on LinkedIn Islington
comm /i n /the big game hunter once
connected message me that you're
interested in coaching will set up a
time for a free discovery call and with
it well that's good gone hi this is Jeff
Alton the big game hunter and welcome to
job search radio on web talk radio net
my guest this time is Kevin karmas who's
the founder of all things career a
digital media and publishing company the
run sites such as career attraction
career me that is the way it's
pronounced Bo's career and every veteran
hire collectively they create more than
30 so we're training programs
delivering smart actionable advice that
gets results Kevin welcome to job search
radio great to have you on hey thanks
for having me on Jeff I appreciate it
Kevin
we were talking about branding where we
chatted before and the importance of job
search branding career branding and I
know every time talk with job hunters
about that they kind of roll their eyes
up into the back of their head and I
know they don't get the importance what
is branding so important for job hunters
well you know it's in Egypt it's such a
great question first of all everybody's
eyes do well on the back of their head
because it sounds like it's become kind
of a buzzword and buzz phrase in the
past few years and in my opinion some
people get it right some people get it
wrong it's much bigger than the job
search it's it's your reputation and as
we talk about social media and the
ability to reach out and touch people in
a way that that was was almost
impossible if not cost prohibitive in
the past it's paramount that you know
what your message is and that you are
able to empower other people who want to
help you with that message and that
really at its core is what branding is
so when you talk about messages
what sort of messages should people be
creating for themselves well you know I
think it's really simple it's it breaks
down the two things kind of who you are
in terms of what what you deliver and
and why somebody would want to talk to
you and I always think is a great
example and this is this kind of
underscores how poorly a lot of people
do this a party that I was at you know
several months ago and and some of my
wife's friends were there and one of my
lifes friends and these are all I'll
just caveat all this upfront
exceptionally bright women when asked
what their husband did said you know
what it has something to do with
computers I'm not quite sure you'd need
to ask him and it hit me like a
sledgehammer at that moment that here's
the person that should be your biggest
evangelist you know your partner your
spouse whomever they can't even they
can't even explain somebody who's asking
what you do how often do we you know are
we trying to give a pitch and we're
trying to
what it is that we do on somebody
somebody's asking and it can't even be
delivered and it's a total failure on
their spouses part in my opinion that
they haven't really tightened up a
message in terms of what they do and be
able to gauge really quickly how
important it is to somebody else which
becomes essential in terms of arming
other people with why they should go out
and you know spread your name share your
name help you network all those things
that we know manifest themselves in
terms of new opportunities and job
security absolutely and when you talked
about this I know I had a guest early on
John Samson and John is a networking
maven he just he's out there he's did so
for 25 years that I know him he was out
there branding very early on and he's
always believed that you know everyone
that should come into contact should
have a clear picture of who you are what
you do and it's not like you're forcing
yourself on people right but like I said
in a situation where someone's partner
or spouse is asked what you do and they
can't answer it how ridiculous is that
well you know and and there are a lot of
folks that talk about this no doubt
night and I totally agree with with what
John saying but I'll come back to some
statistics you know I'm sure you know
Jerry Crispin Tina's partner at career
crossroads do a survey every year
sources of hire and when they break down
the top sources of hire the top two and
these numbers run in the mid to high
twenty percent so like 24 to 27 percent
age top source of higher internal
promotions second top source of hire
referrals you take those two and may
account for more than 50% of why people
are hiring and the common thread between
both of them is that you're a known
quantity people know who you are and in
order to know who you are they need to
be able to articulate who you are and
they need to be able to simply say you
know Jeff if you call me and you ask me
Kevin hey I'm looking for so-and-so I
need to be able to say well here are
three people and you and I actually had
a conversation similar to this when when
we were talking about the podcast
said you know I've got a couple people I
want you to talk to and here's why it's
that it's truly that simple the brand
isn't something like you know an apple
with half a bite out of it it doesn't
have to be you know this have to be
something that's prolific like that it's
got to be something as simple as arming
people with you know here's Jeff and
here's why you need to talk to him and
people of helping out for years along
those lines you know as someone who's
been in the search business for more
than 40 years most of my my clients come
to me through referral how does that how
I become a person they want to refer I
make job hunting you know and hiring a
pleasant experience which is I'm sure
you realize most people don't find job
search enjoyable and they certainly
don't find talking to recruiters a
particularly pleasant process as well
and once I was able to get that message
out and have people develop that
experience of me suddenly referrals came
to be very regular well you know and and
there's something that's exceptionally
important about that too in that where
that conversation is starting with is
with somebody coming to you and then
wanting to talk to you and and and that
balance of the conversation is totally
different particularly when people and
will take it back to the job search when
someone is saying okay I need to go out
and they'll typically default to I'm
going to try to reach out to internal
recruiters and HR managers which you're
in the search business I was in the
search business one of the first things
you're taught is you don't want to work
with HR that you know and this is not to
malign anyone in HR that the reality is
the brass tacks of it are they're not
going to hire you and they are certainly
not the one who has the pain that you're
going to address so as you're packaging
this message you need to be able to
articulate it to the individual who's
going to hire and wouldn't you rather be
in the position of having that
individual who needs to hire calling you
because they've got a pain and they've
heard you're somebody who could possibly
solve this issue form and how might they
hear about you spoke about them
referrals and such
you know what causes that person to want
to refer you what could someone have
done to create that impression in
someone's mind it's going to make them
want to refer well you know this is and
and I'll before I answer that question I
just I'll tackle something that I see
where a lot of people get tripped up
which is getting strategy and tactics
confused in terms of job search you know
there's a lot of tactical advice out
there you know you've got to be on
LinkedIn you have to be on Twitter you
must be on Facebook your resume has got
to look this way I'll tell you right now
you don't have to do any of that stuff
but the one thing you do need to do
before you determine which of those
tools and resources you're going to use
is have an underlying message and once
you have that where you're able to
position that message consistently can
range everywhere from arming or
recruiter like yourself arming a
headhunter with with your message to be
able to go out and evangelize arming
individuals who've worked with you
having a blog where you are providing
information that's going to be relevant
to the audience that you're trying to
get in front of them when I say audience
I mean the people who are going to a
hire you and be have influence with
those people who are going to hire you
and sometimes those things you know you
can take that out to Twitter where
you're simply sharing information it's
other people's information but you know
that it's relevant to the people that
you want to get in front of and all
these things you know it's not so much
just going out and beating your chest
about here's my message here's my
message but thinking about it one step
further about things that are reflective
of your message you know reading an
article that's in line with what you
believe in how you operate and starting
a conversation that way curating
information has been a huge advantage
for many job hunters so whether it's a
LinkedIn groups longer profile on
Twitter on Facebook wherever sharing
that information allows people to see
you as someone who as X is expert at
what you do I remember years ago I knew
a woman who
merrill lynch's when there was Philip
Merrill Lynch's first woman commodities
broker this is pre technology to
pre-internet days and she would casually
send out articles to very wealthy
individuals in order to create an
impression with them and a lot of them
didn't respond and some did and she was
able to open up any number of major
accountants because she had positioned
herself in people's minds as someone who
knew what she was talking about from
just sharing articles it's amazing
absolutely no it is and I'll you know
I'll use two examples really quickly the
first that I'll use is is us and we're
in a similar business you know in terms
of the approach of sort of the the
financial advisor that you just gave a
lot of what we will do is what I call
drafting and drafting is building off of
the other experts who write for our site
we've got over 60 experts that write for
a variety of our sites and a total
70,000 subscribers to those sites as an
individual job seeker you don't need
anywhere near those numbers but what
we're doing is it's sort of it's a the
company we keep that if if these
individuals are writing articles for our
sites their followers are going to take
notice of what we're doing and we have
we have the opportunity we got the
opportunity to become a trusted advisor
it's it is a technique that I've used
through some of the programs one of the
programs in particularly fun you and I
spoke about this the job search boot
camp showing people how to set this up
and I'll give one example really quickly
a woman by the name of Donna Reed who is
a program manager and she operates using
the agile approach there's agile there's
scrum there's a few others I'm by no
means a project management expert well
what she did is she set up a website you
can see this at I think it's the agile
east of p.m. comm or just look up Donna
Reed you've got to use the middle
initial a because there is another Donna
Reed that's slightly more prolific than
she is and and you'll see what she's
doing and she built a site within a year
she had 10,000 subscribers to a site
where she is
essentially was being a serving as a hub
for information so when she needs to
look for another opportunity and she's a
consultant by the way so she's looking
constantly she's got to keep her
pipeline full she can do it in a non
pushy and sleazy way because she's
constantly putting information out there
and setting reciprocity into effect and
that is so so important
you betcha is again part of what she's
doing is creating impressions in
people's minds being a German person
that can be reliable terrific story
thank you this is Jeff off of the big
game Helen you're listening is a job
search radio on web talk radio net we're
going to be back in a moment with more
from Kevin but I want to talk with you
about my job search insider tip which is
about references and I was reminded
about this while I was speaking with
someone earlier this week who had lost
his job with a large consulting firm
recruited into the firm to help set up a
practice someone was eventually hired in
over his head and now she was out
looking for position when I asked him
about how his references would be from
this firm he commented you know I'm not
really sure and I suggest that that was
the time to find that even if it was a a
peer level reference or someone he had
consulted to while working for this
organization it was important to get his
references in place now the beginning of
his search rather than at the very end
where suddenly it feels critical he
would have time to prepare these
references and reach out to different
people and get them lined up as to what
to say he would determine who they the
references should be rather than waiting
at the end would panic might set it and
he's delaying giving the references to a
potential employer which might cause
them to hesitate and become fearful as
to whether or not he was the right
person for them so that's my tip for
this week
let's come back to Kevin and I want us
to get actionable here
let's talk about some of the ways some
more of the ways that people can bring
themselves beyond simply curating
information on the web what else do
people tend to do well you know I'll
talk I'll talk about one strategy and it
builds up something I just commented
about earlier talking about reciprocity
and in really quickly reciprocity is a
social construct is extremely powerful
we can take this it is it is the at its
core it is when we do something for
someone else and they feel indebted to
us and want to balance out that debt did
harbors all the way back to when we were
starting you know basically as cavemen
and I would have a tool and I'd lend it
to you I'd lend it to you because I knew
you were going to give it back to me and
that's where the it's a really deep
social construct and you take it all the
way up to now where we have industries
like lending and credit cards which are
centered around nobody wanting to have
debt and there there's some underlying
behavioral stuff that drives that so to
answer your question one of the things
that I would do and I think this is a
great place for job seekers to start out
whether you have a network or
particularly if you don't really have
one is to be able to go out and figure
out how you can help other people a kind
of a tactical implementation of that so
that's the strategy how can I help other
people going into groups on LinkedIn
becoming members of groups on LinkedIn
that have the people that you and this
is really important that are either the
individuals who can hire you or the
people who are influencing those like
one offs from the people requiring you
and getting in there seeing what the
conversations are and try to be a
resource for other people try to set
reciprocity and emotion infinitely
easier than going out and saying hey I
love to talk to you for a few minutes or
set up an informational interview which
I'll tell you you're going to get like a
direct mail open response rate of like
1% on that if that you're going to be
lucky versus doing something getting
other people to tell you what is their
pain right now and helping them solve
that give more get more is so true and
what it is you're an IT person you might
join the CIO or
tío group and participate you're not
getting on on these groups to say hey
hire me right right exact exactly
exactly and that and that's so important
to is is thinking about what you do
initially and and don't start with what
you want it's not about you it's going
to be it's got to be about them and you
know the kind of the fear-based lizard
brain amygdala sort of stuff kicking in
for everybody is well what happens when
I go out there and I help somebody they
don't help me back well a it's going to
happen and B I'm a big believer in fail
fast so figure out sooner rather than
later whether these are the people that
you want in your network and you want to
build relationships with because the
people who who this is at their core but
do this constantly it's a constant
practice and you figure out it the
quicker you can figure out whether
somebody that is a core value for
someone the sooner you know whether you
want to invest more time and getting to
know them I lead with it all the time
and if I can help somebody and then they
don't help me maybe it's because they
can't help me right now but if it
doesn't even come up as an offer it
sticks in my head and they kind of go a
little bit lower down on the totem pole
in terms of folks that I would call I'm
the same way in in the work that I do
people come to me all the time looking
for advice I give of it freely and at
the same time there has to be limits
because ultimately right
I'm only normally paid for advice what
I'm paying for is filled filling
positions with Ruth or ghen ization z--
so I'll do coaching but it's not
anything I make tons and tons of money
at what I really do is help
organizations achieve objectives by
hunting down their leaders and their
staff so I'll connect with people talk
with them about how they hire what their
process is like how they might be able
to streamline it or improve it I have no
expectation at the end of the day that
100 Eva moral from the
than not they do but again it's giveaway
which we you know you I think I think
you hit on something that's so important
I know that when and I'm sure you follow
us practice as well when I was a
headhunter I figured out really quickly
the people who would always be great
resources for me and I had a short list
whenever search came up of individuals
that I was going to call because I knew
that good people knew good people you
know it's kind of the company key
they were always resources for me they
would always help me out they'd always
take my phone call
and this is where I think a lot a lot of
job seekers just a lot of professionals
in general lose sight of the importance
of relationships this is just one
example of a relationship to nurture and
what this did for the so yes this this
this serve me and this and how it served
me was I had the shortlist but how it
served them was these individuals who
were receptive to my call and they might
be getting a call from me once every
other week something like that they were
in effect getting direct top-line access
to my pipeline of job opportunities
because I was going to run everything
past them so they've got the ultimate
right of refusal upfront and how smart
is that versus you know the people who I
will hear moan and groan and say you
know I called this recruiter and they
haven't called me back and they haven't
well what do you do inform I mean it's
it's quid pro quo and and it's so so
easy to fix
I was I was speaking to a friend of mine
in the job search the other day and he's
a senior level PR and communications guy
and he said you know how do I approach
headhunters I've never worked for them
before and I was like flat out but first
of all get an introduction from somebody
else because if you cold call these guys
they are so busy you know there's you're
not tied to revenue it's truly that
simple so you better you better get
lined up with that really quick you need
to get an introduction to somebody else
someone who they have a relationship
with get on the call you need to have a
tight story and folks and PR and
communications understand messaging if
they don't they're not gonna be very
successful at it you get your message
across to him and then very quickly move
into what is it that I can do for you
tell me a little bit about some of the
search
you've got going on and let me see who
in my network I can connect you with
that becomes so powerful and folks for
job hunters no matter what level you're
at this is so true the people who are
coming to me and I'm going to use slang
from when I was growing up who are
purely mooches who are there just to
take take take take and aren't really
concerned about my circumstances I have
to maintain a certain distance with in
contrast the ones who have helped me
over the years
I will leap tall buildings in a single
bound out I want to help them get
position they've helped thing I want to
help them there's that reciprocity thing
you were talking about Kevin it's it's a
tree now I even take it a step further
there's a chief marketing officer that
when I used to do coaching I worked with
and you know one of the things I told
him every single time and he went
through a search and we work together a
couple times and when he would start the
new search I would say you know what
have you done to maintain the
relationships and keep it attractive and
I don't have time to do that and I said
well here here's what makes this really
tough when you go out because you need
something people see right through that
and the message they're getting at their
core if relationships are truly
important to them and you want people
that relationships are important too and
I'll show this to your why in a second
and this is all totally logical and you
can see it play out in a day to day
basis if if he's going out only when you
need something that he's saying I don't
really value you until I need something
from you and the people who going back
to what I said earlier you're
fundamentally asking them to say if you
call me and you only call me when you
need something you're asking me to pick
up the phone and call other people not
send an email pick up the phone and call
other people that's a true litmus test
of a relationship and for me to say to
somebody else hey Jane I've got this guy
Jeff and here's why I think you should
talk to them I don't know if you're
looking at if you know anybody who is it
doesn't really matter great guy you
should get to know and that's it and if
you're if you're only tapping into your
network when you need something from
them the people who have those kind of
relationships will see it in a second
not going to do anything for you because
they're putting their reputation on the
line if you're going to treat your own
network like crap I'm not going to give
you an opportunity to do it to mine and
that's a reflection of me very very true
and as we're coming up on the end of our
time with one another I want to make
sure we cover some great points some
more the great points that you have what
else should people be doing to brand
themselves and to create reputation
people's minds they want to be helped so
they want to help I should say yeah you
know I always think about when you're
crafting your message a mistake that I
made really early on and I I was an
infantry officer in the army and I
transitioned out and eventually became a
headhunter made a pretty quick
transition to that but one of the things
that I was really focused on initially
was what I was proud of and what I felt
good about and what I enjoyed doing and
I thought was valuable terms of terms of
what I had accomplished as a as an
infantry officer what I came to find out
was when I should have done and and I
did you know did this moving forward and
I did this was clients as a headhunter
is go back to the people who I had
worked for the company commanders the
battalion commanders and find out what
was it that I did that made your life
easier this is this is extremely
important for people who are
transitioning industries forget about
what you think it doesn't really matter
what you think because you're not going
to hire you let's go find people who
hired you and you worked for before and
what a day what did you do on a daily
basis that was impactful for them that
becomes the message because going back
to your comment earlier about references
like you know you shape the references
you shape the references during an
interview process you shape the
references during any kind of networking
you're doing because you have stories
you've got vignettes that tie in with
these things that you do well and the
vignettes should be shaped around the
people who are going to go validate
those those stories not well you need to
talk to my former boss you need to talk
to the former CEO now I need to talk to
the people who experienced firsthand the
things that you did that I want you to
do for me
very true I go so far as to tell people
they should put a few of those quotes on
their resume
no more than the little Avery yeah
because those become symbols of what
other people believe you're capable of
doing the successes that you've had and
just allows others to see how others see
you as well and that causes them to
receive social proof which we're all
looking for the testimonials from other
people and causes us causes them to want
to talk to us that much more well you
know I was you said exactly what I was
going to say in response it's it's all
about social proof you know it's it's
why you see companies out there dropping
their guard and being out on things like
Facebook and Twitter I can tell you all
day long everybody knows that an ad on
TV is self-promotion everybody knows
that a resume self-promotion the quicker
you can move to other people saying just
fantastic and here's why you don't have
to do any of the heavy lifting that's
right they become a sales force for you
absolutely and that's what everyone
wants to be doing to create motivated
individuals who want to help you not
necessarily because what they have been
asked even though you may ask them but
what I found over the years that people
get ahead by being alert the opportunity
sometimes those are internal to an
organization more often than not they're
external and where do you wind up
hearing about some of those from people
who will call you up and say hey I heard
about this opportunity it's not a
recruiter I'm taking off it can just be
a print my firm is trying to hire
someone who once you come talk to us
suddenly I want you for that
organization now advice to Robin a3 no
no no that's okay I completely agree and
it's you know again it comes back to
empowering somebody with a and let me
qualify this and I and I should have
qualified this a little bit earlier the
message you're empowering somebody with
it's going to be centered around the
things that are important to that person
who's going to hire you
and not you know so many people start
out with well I'm a recruiter and here's
what I did and it becomes kind of like a
laundry list of job responsibilities
forget about that think about outcomes
what are the three things is if I if I
was to sit down with somebody who is who
is looking to hire before they jumped
into a conversation with me about you
know tell me a little bit about yourself
well now I'm 43 so there's a lot of
ground we could cover and a lot of it if
you give zero interest to you so more
importantly you're looking to hire what
are the three things and what are the
three things that are keeping you up at
night that are causing you to hemorrhage
cash you're losing customers you're
afraid other people are going to quit
what's what's the stuff that where does
this person have to stop the bleeding
now and if they haven't thought about it
it's probably a good sign that a person
who's hiring is you know a little bit of
a mess but putting that aside most
people are like you know we've got to
get this this and this down not somebody
needs to have this many years experience
here's the stuff that needs to get done
and that's when you can very quickly be
able to start pointing in on what it is
that you do well and where it's a fit
and conversely if what they're looking
for is something that you can't do or
you won't do cut slack and move on and
don't just don't just trash a
relationship I know I just jumped into
interviewing but it's it's a
manifestation of everything we're trying
to achieve here I mean the outcome we
want is to get an interview so you know
don't just trash it you've done that
this is something I found so interesting
I'll if you've seen this Jeff but I get
questions from people all the time that
say you know well I've gone through this
interview process with so-and-so and I
connected with them on LinkedIn and I
did all the things I was supposed to do
should I disconnect from them now that I
know they're not going to hire me like
are you kidding me usually it'll work
you just you gave all this work to build
a relationship and they know who you are
first of all what I would do is I would
leverage dilip right now if you were the
runner up trust me you know how many how
many people listening are are realizing
that every time that they get a call and
get a call forget about emails that's
the coward's way out
get a
call telling you that you didn't get a
job you get it at the end of the day you
want to know why because nobody wants to
make that call you're not going to rip
the band-aid off the beginning of the
day they're going to do it at the end of
the day and that is the best time
instead of being ticked off instead of
being defensive that person who's
calling you the recruiter the hiring
manager whoever is feeling guilty they
don't want to make that call you can
turn that call around on them very
quickly and it requires being totally
self aware of this and leverage into
well you know you've gotten to know me
pretty well who do you know that I
should be talking to they've got your
message
you know who you are like don't trash it
leverage it build off of it and oh by
the way the person they just made the
offer to they could flake out you know
you may be the runner-up don't burn that
bridge I mean they're just just it's
it's it's really interesting to me again
it comes back to this concept strategy
versus tactics and the strategy is we're
looking to build relationships with
like-minded people and and that is a I
know I shared this with you when we
first spoke you know it's the building
relationships is kind of like the I
think it's the Chinese proverb of when's
the best time to plant a tree well the
best time to plant a tree was 20 years
ago the second best time is right now so
there's no time like the present
you start now you water the tree I feel
like going into Chauncey Gardiner from
being there those of you haven't seen
the movie there's a scene where Peter
Sellers talks and talks about the
economy but he's really a gardener and
what he's trying to do is use gardening
metaphors that's really all he knows
would all of a sudden for those of you
who are listening just keep doing the
things to reach out to people and
develop relationships those
relationships will not just simply sorta
during this job sparks a concern for job
searches for many many years to come
and and by planting those seeds in the
ground by watering them regularly by
pruning from time to time what you're
able to do is foster relationships that
can be useful to you and useful to them
so that people will want to recommend
you they want to refer you that want to
tell others about I know that's how my
business is prospering I suspect the
same is true of you together oh it's
true
you know whether whether you are
whatever business you're in I mean being
a known quantity and getting referrals
and and having people refer you and talk
about you in a positive light is amazing
not to mention it makes you feel good I
mean and there you guys you can't put a
price on that it's so true
Kevin how can people reach you probably
the best way is our site all things
career and that's all things career.com
it's the flagship site for all of our
other subordinate sites that you in
shared you can check those out plus we
also run a podcast which with any luck
you'll be hearing Jeff on soon how's
that for putting you on the spot so I
hope you found it helpful and if you did
here are a few ways to get even more
from me first of all visit my website
www.marykay.co.uk/awilliam if you have a
few questions contact me through the
magnify up for iOS that's magnify with
an eye at the end or presto experts.com
or you can call me schedule a specific
time with me through chat or magnify or
by connecting with me on LinkedIn at
lincoln comm /i n forward slash the big
game higher once we're connected on
LinkedIn you can message me about
coaching you speaking with me about a
resume or LinkedIn profile
help with a salary negotiation my
trusted advisor services as well as
scheduling me through four magnify or
four presto experts com like you I don't
work for free you can also take my
classes on Skillshare and become a
premium member using the link in the
show notes and receive two months for
free instead of just the one that the
site offers Skillshare offers thousands
of courses not just simply mine it is a
great resource in a variety of different
areas subscribe to my other podcast
which is called job search radio this
one is number one an apple podcast job
search radio was number two subscribe to
both you will get great information
seven days a week from this show six
days a week from the other lastly I want
to encourage you to join my group on
Facebook call career angles it's free to
the first 500 people who join and is
focused on helping you do better at work
information is shared daily and we're
building a supportive group there to
provide advice and counsel during
difficult times again the gloop on
Facebook is cool career angles I'll be
back tomorrow with more in the meantime
have a great day be great
[Music]
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